Australian Politics Forum - Islam's just war theory

polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #105 - Aug 7^th, 2017 at 8:54am

freediver wrote on Aug 4^th, 2017 at 9:28pm:

Can you quote any of these lies Gandalf?

Sure FD, here it is again...

Quote:

Muslims will make the absurd argument that the Quran does not use the term self-defence because it was written in Arabic, not English. That is, they will literally use the fact that self-defence is written in English to justify its absence from the Quran (you do not misunderstand, it really is that stupid). However no English translations use the term either.

- contains a single reference - me.

Quote:

Muslims will also claim that the Quran “clearly explains” the concept of self-defence without mentioning the term, for example by citing Quran 22.39-40

- contains a single reference - me.

Quote:

Muslims will also argue that verses in the Koran permit war "only" against people that Muslims have peace treaties with that they are actively violating.

- contains a single reference - me.

Quote:

Muslims will attempt to argue that Quran 60:8 states that Muslims are only permitted to engage in war as an act of self-defence. However it merely states that Muslims are not explicitly forbidden from being nice to people who do not attack Muslims – they are merely forbidden from being ‘allies’ with them

- contains a single reference - me.

Stating as fact that it is a claim by muslims (plural), when you have only heard it from one muslim is a lie. Tell me how you could possibly be having difficulty with this most basic concept FD?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #106 - Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am

Usually one reference is enough Gandalf. Do you have any reason to believe that you are the only Muslim telling these particular lies about the Koran? Is this why you refuse to say whether you fabricated these lies yourself or where you got them from - so you can demand I change all the plurals to singular? Don't you think it would be better to just be honest about where you are getting this from?

Quote:

Where does it say that FD?

Chapter 9. Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them. Something to do with not being a Muslim, right?

Quote:

Again, the only explicit justification for fighting is for self defense. Spot the difference between:

1. Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged.

You do realise this is talking about violence as retribution, not self defence, right? Like when you justified Muhammad's career of robbing and murdering Meccan traders. It is a textbook case of victimhood mentality. You are the victim. You have been wronged. Slaughter the infidel.

Or does Islam redefine self defence as well?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #107 - Aug 7^th, 2017 at 1:56pm

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am:

Usually one reference is enough Gandalf. Do you have any reason to believe that you are the only Muslim telling these particular lies about the Koran? Is this why you refuse to say whether you fabricated these lies yourself or where you got them from - so you can demand I change all the plurals to singular? Don't you think it would be better to just be honest about where you are getting this from?

Incredible. I think you genuinely just don't get it. But at least tell me this FD - what game were you playing when you invented this plurality of muslims making the claim you only heard me say? Were you thinking that falsely accusing muslims en masse of saying something you consider ridiculous smears Islam better than if you had just told the truth and attributed to the only muslim you heard saying it? Were you trying to once again portray muslims as a monolithic hive mind?

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am:

Chapter 9. Kill the Mushriken wherever you find them. Something to do with not being a Muslim, right?

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims. Thats what we call making up stuff about the Quran - you know the thing you accuse me of doing ad nauseum.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #108 - Aug 7^th, 2017 at 1:58pm freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am: ou do realise this is talking about violence as retribution, not self defence, right? Rubbish. On planet earth, saying you are permitted to fight against those who attack you first is the very definition of self defence. Apparently its something sinister in FD world.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49730 At my desk.	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #109 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm Quote: No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims. So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?
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Moriaty Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 209 Gender:	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #110 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am: Usually one reference is enough Gandalf. Which means Marine Parks are a total load of bollocks!
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #111 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:38pm

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Quote:

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims.

So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?

When they break their treaty.

But thank you for confirming you literally invented the part about muslims being ordered to kill unbelievers - for being unbelievers.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Moriaty

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #112 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:53pm

Freediver seems to base most of his arguments on them being self-evident. Of course his arguments are only self-evident to himself, which basically makes his posting a kind of self-flagellatory orgy of misrepresentation and inaccuracy.

Still, lots of fun to read!

One day psychologists will study these forums to determine why he went postal...

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Karnal

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #113 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 8:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 1:56pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am:

Usually one reference is enough Gandalf. Do you have any reason to believe that you are the only Muslim telling these particular lies about the Koran? Is this why you refuse to say whether you fabricated these lies yourself or where you got them from - so you can demand I change all the plurals to singular? Don't you think it would be better to just be honest about where you are getting this from?

Incredible. I think you genuinely just don't get it. But at least tell me this FD - what game were you playing when you invented this plurality of muslims making the claim you only heard me say? Were you thinking that falsely accusing muslims en masse of saying something you consider ridiculous smears Islam better than if you had just told the truth and attributed to the only muslim you heard saying it? Were you trying to once again portray muslims as a monolithic hive mind?

Not at all, G. In FD's defence, sometimes a question is just a question.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97251	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #114 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 8:38pm Moriaty wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm: freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am: Usually one reference is enough Gandalf. Which means Marine Parks are a total load of bollocks! Wait until we've dealt with the Muselman, Moriarty. We'll get onto carbon taxes and sustainable fishing when we're done, okay?
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Karnal

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #115 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 8:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Quote:

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims.

So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?

When they break their treaty..

Only one Muslim said this, FD.

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Moriaty

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #116 - Aug 8^th, 2017 at 8:55pm

Karnal wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 8:38pm:

Moriaty wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2017 at 10:33am:

Usually one reference is enough Gandalf.

Which means Marine Parks are a total load of bollocks! Grin

Wait until we've dealt with the Muselman, Moriarty.

We'll get onto carbon taxes and sustainable fishing when we're done, okay?

I doubt Freediver can keep more than one stream of BS straight at anyone time. He certainly doesn't seem to be able to separate his prejudices from his scantly available fictional facts at the best of times....

So sure. In the (paraphrased) words of the greatest Australian Prime Minister: "Let's do him slowly". Grin

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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #117 - Aug 10^th, 2017 at 12:05am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Quote:

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims.

So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?

When they break their treaty.

But thank you for confirming you literally invented the part about muslims being ordered to kill unbelievers - for being unbelievers.

Do you agree that the reference to breaking treaties is a caveat on the reference to "except if there is a treaty", which is itself a caveat on the general rule to slaughter the infidel? We have gone over this dozens of times but I do not think you have ever responded to this point.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2016 at 10:08am:

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

What do you think it means Moriaty?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97251	Re: Islam's just war theory Reply #118 - Aug 10^th, 2017 at 10:02am freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2017 at 12:05am: I do not think you have ever responded to this point. Oh, I know.
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freediver

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Re: Islam's just war theory
Reply #119 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 11:39am

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 14^th, 2017 at 10:59am:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 8:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 5:39pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 13^th, 2017 at 3:30pm:

Let see a demonstration of this. Gandalf, what does this passage from the Koran mean?

[quote author=freediver link=1469837313/0#0 date=1469837313]
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

it a command for muslims to kill the mushrikun wherever one finds them. Or is this a trick question?

It seemed to be a difficult question all the other times I asked you. Would you like to give your interpretation of all the other details in the passage?

No FD, you have never asked me that question before. Fancy that eh?

I have asked you plenty of times in this thread Gandalf. Here is the most recent example:

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2017 at 12:05am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:38pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2017 at 7:11pm:

Quote:

No, it says kill the mushriken wherever you find them - not kill the mushriken wherever you find them because they are non-muslims.

So the Koran says to slaughter the infidel for no particular reason?

When they break their treaty.

But thank you for confirming you literally invented the part about muslims being ordered to kill unbelievers - for being unbelievers.

Do you agree that the reference to breaking treaties is a caveat on the reference to "except if there is a treaty", which is itself a caveat on the general rule to slaughter the infidel? We have gone over this dozens of times but I do not think you have ever responded to this point.

freediver wrote on Jul 30^th, 2016 at 10:08am:

4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then

kill the Mushrikun

(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

What do you think it means Moriaty?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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