freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2017 at 2:34pm:


Would you describe the eye for an eye principle a "concept of proportionate response"?

freediver wrote on Jul 12^th, 2017 at 12:09pm:


That's a question, FD.

I'm curious. Would you like to try an answer?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 12^th, 2017 at 2:14pm:


Do you realise that the whole point of a just war doctrine is that different principles apply to warfare and domestic justice?

Do you realise that "an eye for an eye" directly contradicts the self defence doctrine? Do you think it is a bit silly to use a verse to support Islam's doctrine of proportionality that directly contradicts the doctrine of self defence? Or is there a cherry picking doctrine I am not familiar with?

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It is a gap that you can fill in with whatever you want. However, Muhammad's own example would suggest the proportionality is not the intention. There are limits specified in the Koran. For example, wait until the sacred months are over. I believe there is a caveat on this one - unless you are attacked. If that is true, then Islam does apply the self defence doctrine, but only during the sacred months, and the need to make this distinction implies that the self defence doctrine does not apply outside those times. Another example is do not violate treaties, and do not kill women and goats. I think it makes more sense that the Koran is referring to the limits that the Koran sets out, not whatever non-Muslim standards people want to apply 1400 years later.

Can you substantiate this "most scholars" claim?

Why won't you say where you get all these silly ideas from?

How does your justification of Muhammad's career robbing and murdering Meccan traders as retribution for his mistreatement in Mecca fit in with the self defence and proportionality doctrines?

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The verse you use to substantiate proportionality is a call for revenge.

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Did it not occur to you that I might mean in the context of a just war doctrine?

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Whether the vague reference to "limits" equates to a just war doctrine of proportionality depends entirely on what those limits are. The Koran specifies the limits, and they are wholly disproportionate and nothing at all to do with the extent of the opposing party's militance.

Am I correct that Islam does in fact state quite clearly that self defence is the only permissible justification for war during the 'holy months'?

freediver wrote on Jul 24^th, 2017 at 8:31pm:


If you are asking if this is the only instance in which self defence is commanded - then no.

22:39-40 makes no mention of the Holy months

The Quran does state quite clearly that self defence is the only permissible justification for war during the 'holy months'.

But I'm not sure where you are going with that. I assumed you were implying it is the only time self defense is permitted - no?

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2017 at 12:47pm:


Yet you just completely ignored my reference to another verse besides the holy month verse that would be very difficult to dismiss as a clear "general" doctrine of self defense. Which is a shame - I'd be fascinated to what mental gymnastics you would perform to construe my interpretation of 22:7 as "lying about what the Koran says".

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2017 at 12:47pm:


Just because you have a different interpretation of "not exceed limits" than I do in this context, doesn't make me a liar FD. Especially when I have clearly explained why I take this interpretation. And its pretty rich seeing you post after post make these ridiculous accusations of me lying - when you presumably still haven't corrected your BS in the wiki about "muslims" (plural) saying things that you have clearly only ever heard me say. Can you explain how that is anything other than lying FD?

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Perhaps you should quote it. Have I already addressed it previously? Or were you saving the best for last? So far every example you have given about Islam only permitting war in self defence has been a lie about what the Koran says. Yet for some reason you left out the bit where the Koran states quite clearly that war is only permitted in self defence, because it makes it bleeding obvious that this is only the case during the holy months.

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So what is the difference between interpretting the Koran and lying about what it says?

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You have ducked and weaved for endless pages. You still refuse to even explain whether you came up with these "interpretations" yourself or got them from somewhere else.

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Is that because you realise no other Muslim would tell the same lies about the Koran?

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Can you tell me whether what I said is true? Or are you accusing me of lying at the same time as refusing to take a position either way yourself?