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Islam - the Left looks away. (Read 40098 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #195 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:03am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 10:41am:
Let's start with what it actually says before building the context....


Yes lets FD. Should I repeat what you literally just quoted me saying?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #196 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:06am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 8:15pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 5:39pm:
freediver wrote on Aug 13th, 2017 at 3:30pm:
Let see a demonstration of this. Gandalf, what does this passage from the Koran mean?

[quote author=freediver link=1469837313/0#0 date=1469837313]
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


it a command for muslims to kill the mushrikun wherever one finds them. Or is this a trick question?


It seemed to be a difficult question all the other times I asked you. Would you like to give your interpretation of all the other details in the passage?


So it is a tough one after all. Try again Gandalf.
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #197 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:14am
 
Just the "details" that you have cherry picked here, or am I allowed to draw on the context of the whole verse, and all the other related verses I have painstakingly referenced before? Basically, my answer is:

kill the mushriken - who have broken their treaty with you - wherever you find them.

Presumably you want me to say

"kill the non-musllims for being non-muslims because wherever you find them for all time and place, no ifs or buts"

- would that make me a "good" muslim if I said that FD?



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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #198 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:22am
 
I think it actually says to kill the mushriken, except for the ones that have a current, unbroken treaty. Like I explained a dozen times in the other thread, and have still not been able to get a straight answer from you on, the treaty violation part is a caveat on a caveat.
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #199 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:49am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:22am:
I think it actually says to kill the mushriken, except for the ones that have a current, unbroken treaty.


That would contradict the very first verse of the chapter:

Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


Muslim scholars universally agree that the chapter is referring specifically to the polytheists (mushriken) with whom a treaty was signed, but which had been broken by the polytheists (nb the use of the past tense "you had" - which is reflected in the arabic). The next verses implore the polytheists to spend the next few months (the "sacred months) in re-establishing the treaties, and warning of dire consequences if they "turn away":

So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah

The chapter then turns to the mushriken who have not violated the treaty, and declaring them "off limits":

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended].

9:5 onwards tells muslims what must be done against the polytheists who decided not to reaffirm their treaties after the grace period had finished.

Once again, this interpretation is consistent with 22:39 and elsewhere that clearly stipulates the permissibility of war only in self defence.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: chapter 9
Reply #200 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 12:07pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:49am:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:22am:
I think it actually says to kill the mushriken, except for the ones that have a current, unbroken treaty.


That would contradict the very first verse of the chapter:

Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


Muslim scholars universally agree that the chapter is referring specifically to the polytheists (mushriken) with whom a treaty was signed, but which had been broken by the polytheists (nb the use of the past tense "you had" - which is reflected in the arabic). The next verses implore the polytheists to spend the next few months (the "sacred months) in re-establishing the treaties, and warning of dire consequences if they "turn away":

So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah

The chapter then turns to the mushriken who have not violated the treaty, and declaring them "off limits":

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and
then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended].


9:5 onwards tells muslims what must be done against the polytheists who decided not to reaffirm their treaties after the grace period had finished.

Once again, this interpretation is consistent with 22:39 and elsewhere that clearly stipulates the permissibility of war only in self defence.


It says that the infidel with whom the Muslims have a treaty are the exception. 9:5 is a general command to slaughter the infidel. 9:4 is an exception for the infidel that have a treaty. It says this in the version you quoted.

Here it is again for you:

freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2016 at 10:08am:
4. Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then
kill the Mushrikun
(see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.
But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


You are offering an interpretation that is inconsistent with what the Koran actually says, and is inconsistent with the actions of Muhammad and his immediate successors (the 'rightly guided' Caliphs), who sent out war parties with general instructions to slaughter towns and villages unless they pay Muslim taxes and recite Muslim prayers, exactly as stipulated in chapter 9.

The entire chapter is devoted to encouraging Muslims to slaughter the infidel, with clearly stated exceptions, but you expect people to believe their is a broad restriction that is not clearly stated anywhere?

Were there any Muslim scholars offering this particular reinterpretation in Islam's first century, before Muslims found themselves no longer in a position to slaughter the infidel at will?
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« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2017 at 12:14pm by freediver »  

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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #201 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 12:07pm:
It says that the infidel with whom the Muslims have a treaty are the exception.


no it doesn't FD, it says the infidels (actually mushriken - which is not the same, but anyway) with whom the muslims have a treaty - and who have not been 'deficient' towards you, or supported other enemies against you - are the exception.

Again, if it said that any and all mushriken whom the muslims had a treaty with are exempted - then that would contradict the very first verse - which declares that the chapter is a "declaration"  "to those [mushriken] with whom you had made a treaty". Clearly, the people who you claim are being exempted are in fact the ones being put on notice from the very first verse.

freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 12:07pm:
The entire chapter is devoted to encouraging Muslims to slaughter the infidel, with clearly stated exceptions


The entire chapter clearly stipulates at the beginning that it concerns only the mushriken to whom a treaty has been made. It then draws a distinction between those who have been true to their agreement ("not been deficient towards you") - and those who have not, and clearly states the former are "excepted". Only then does it launch into the "kill the mushriken wherever you find them" commands.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #202 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:38pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:49am:
freediver wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:22am:
I think it actually says to kill the mushriken, except for the ones that have a current, unbroken treaty.


That would contradict the very first verse of the chapter:

Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


Muslim scholars universally agree that the chapter is referring specifically to the polytheists (mushriken) with whom a treaty was signed, but which had been broken by the polytheists (nb the use of the past tense "you had" - which is reflected in the arabic). The next verses implore the polytheists to spend the next few months (the "sacred months) in re-establishing the treaties, and warning of dire consequences if they "turn away":

So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah

The chapter then turns to the mushriken who have not violated the treaty, and declaring them "off limits":

Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended].

9:5 onwards tells muslims what must be done against the polytheists who decided not to reaffirm their treaties after the grace period had finished.

Once again, this interpretation is consistent with 22:39 and elsewhere that clearly stipulates the permissibility of war only in self defence.


Hmm last I checked self defence doesn't mean "attack anyone who doesn't agree to a treaty with you by a prearranged date."

I mean seriously, why couldn't Allah just have said, "fight back if you get attacked, I'll forgive you. But don't go attacking people, no matter how threatening their mere presence may be to you.   And especially not to steal their gold."

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« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2017 at 10:15pm by sir prince duke alevine »  

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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #203 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:00am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:38pm:
I mean seriously, why couldn't Allah just have said, "fight back if you get attacked, I'll forgive you. But don't go attacking people, no matter how threatening their mere presence may be to you.   And especially not to steal their gold."


He did Alevine:

22:18
Quote:
Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged.


- God permits people to fight - but clearly it is conditional on them being attacked (ie self defense). Here FD likes to argue the toss over the omission of the word "only" - he reckons that gives muslims a loophole to go out and slaughter for other reasons. However to any rational person reading this, it is clearly a conditional statement - especially with the use of the word "permission (is given)".

This conditional command is reiterated in 2:190:

Quote:
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.


even the dreaded 'war verse' chapter 9 sets out from the outset that the only people who are to be targeted are those amongst the polytheists who enter into treaties, but don't fulfill them:

9:1
Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


9:4
Quote:
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended].


After laying the ground rules for how fighting may be embarked upon (ie self defense), the Quran then goes on to make very clear and specific commands related to only continue fighting so long as the oppression continues, or if the enemy makes overtures to peace:

4:90
Quote:
Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.


2:193
Quote:
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors[
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #204 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 4:52pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:14am:
Just the "details" that you have cherry picked here, or am I allowed to draw on the context of the whole verse, and all the other related verses I have painstakingly referenced before? Basically, my answer is:

kill the mushriken - who have broken their treaty with you - wherever you find them.

Presumably you want me to say

"kill the non-musllims for being non-muslims because wherever you find them for all time and place, no ifs or buts"

- would that make me a "good" muslim if I said that FD?





I agree with Gandalf on this one. It's not a blanket call to kill all non Muslims.

It does not say: "kill them because they are non-Muslims."
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #205 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 5:52pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 11:00am:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:38pm:
I mean seriously, why couldn't Allah just have said, "fight back if you get attacked, I'll forgive you. But don't go attacking people, no matter how threatening their mere presence may be to you.   And especially not to steal their gold."


He did Alevine:

22:18
Quote:
Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged.


- God permits people to fight - but clearly it is conditional on them being attacked (ie self defense). Here FD likes to argue the toss over the omission of the word "only" - he reckons that gives muslims a loophole to go out and slaughter for other reasons. However to any rational person reading this, it is clearly a conditional statement - especially with the use of the word "permission (is given)".

This conditional command is reiterated in 2:190:

Quote:
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.


even the dreaded 'war verse' chapter 9 sets out from the outset that the only people who are to be targeted are those amongst the polytheists who enter into treaties, but don't fulfill them:

9:1
Quote:
[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.


9:4
Quote:
Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended].


After laying the ground rules for how fighting may be embarked upon (ie self defense), the Quran then goes on to make very clear and specific commands related to only continue fighting so long as the oppression continues, or if the enemy makes overtures to peace:

4:90
Quote:
Except for those who take refuge with a people between yourselves and whom is a treaty or those who come to you, their hearts strained at [the prospect of] fighting you or fighting their own people. And if Allah had willed, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them.


2:193
Quote:
Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors[


I dunno gandalf - fighting those who have been wronged can mean anything. Stealing a loaf of bread from me is wronging me. Does that mean i get to go kill them?

I like how you talk about rationalism. Surely a rational mind can agree that there is much wrong in the Muslim world and this comes very much from verses which, no matter how much you have tried to interpret in the best light (and honestly, that's great), other Muslims interpret to be something else.  I'd much prefer when it comes to war verses and so forth that Allah made it a little less grey, and perhaps we wouldn't have jihadists driving over innocent people or trying to bomb them to pieces. Or even Islamic states, filled with millions of people, that have such farkkked up laws.
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #206 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:03pm
 
Auggie wrote on Aug 18th, 2017 at 4:52pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 11:14am:
Just the "details" that you have cherry picked here, or am I allowed to draw on the context of the whole verse, and all the other related verses I have painstakingly referenced before? Basically, my answer is:

kill the mushriken - who have broken their treaty with you - wherever you find them.

Presumably you want me to say

"kill the non-musllims for being non-muslims because wherever you find them for all time and place, no ifs or buts"

- would that make me a "good" muslim if I said that FD?





I agree with Gandalf on this one. It's not a blanket call to kill all non Muslims.

It does not say: "kill them because they are non-Muslims."


Killing dissenters is what is decreed,  giving mullas and other muslim maniacs filled the murderous spirit of Mohammed power to rule over any opposition.
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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #207 - Feb 15th, 2022 at 5:22pm
 
The Mothras, Bbwians, Musta Fakens, Gweggy turds, Duckwits et al always look at their shoes when Islamic inhumanity comes up.  They are very loud and relentless about condemning America, Australia, the West,  - but when it comes to Islam they are looking the other way, shuffling they feet and sweat quietly.

Afghanistan is starving now that the Great Satan and the Little Satan left and Islam is rampant. But for these proggy paragons of virtue (signalling) Islamically induced starvation, trading girls to feed a family, selling girls to old men as spare wives, treating girls as chattels, denying them education, and wall to wall monstrous inhumanity in the name of 'Allah' and his 'messenger' never registers.

Every Islamic outrage, cruelty and inhumanity goes unremarked by those lefty hypocrites, spineless, immoral and corrupt shrieking crones and Reggies.

Even their ABC is talking about it - but they are adamant and will not be provoked into 'Islamophobia'  - because that's what it is, Islamophobia. Oh, yes. And racism, of course. And standing up for girls and women is transphobia, needless to say. The tanned sons of Mohammed can do no wrong in the eyes of these smug, deformed immoral pigmies at heart.

https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/millions-face-starva...








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Reply #208 - Apr 20th, 2022 at 1:48am
 
Why aren’t we talking about the Islamist uprising in Sweden?

Freedom of speech must include the freedom to ridicule Islam.

Right now, in Europe, mobs of people are rioting. They’re hurling rocks and stones at police officers and setting fire to cars. Several cities have been shaken to their core by this riotous fury. A police chief says they are the most violent street disturbances he has ever known. Worse, this is an entirely regressive riot. It is not an angry uprising for democracy or liberty, but its polar opposite – it’s a screech of religious rage against the expression of certain ‘blasphemous’ ideas; it’s a fiery effort to suppress ‘offensive’ speech. Some of the worst riots in a country’s living memory, all to the end of defending archaic religious beliefs from challenge or criticism… why aren’t we talking about this?

This is happening in Sweden. It’s been happening for four days now. On Friday there were riots in the city of Orebro. The violence spread to the city of Norrkoping, which is around a hundred miles south-west of Stockholm, and to Linkoping. Then there was street violence in an actual Stockholm suburb: Rinkeby. On Saturday violence rocked the southern city of Malmo. In some cities the violence continued on Sunday and Monday. Scores of police officers have been injured and dozens of rioters arrested. According to the BBC, Sweden’s national police chief, Anders Thornberg, says he has ‘never seen such violent riots’. He says the rioters ‘tried to kill police officers’.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/04/19/why-arent-we-talking-about-the-islamist...

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Re: Islam - the Left looks away.
Reply #209 - May 20th, 2022 at 1:40pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 14th, 2017 at 9:32am:
The Prog left have always sneered derided and lied.  Ridiculing and harassing those who dissent from their "enlightened" pov.

Quote:
Left looks away from Islamist threat

Peter Baldwin
The Australian
12:00AM July 14, 2017

On a recent episode of the ABC’s Q&A American physicist Lawrence Krauss delighted the audience by claiming that in the US falling fridges posed a greater safety risk than terrorist attacks.

Variations on this theme recur in statements by those determined to minimise the threat posed by terrorists inspired by Islamic doctrine. What about bathroom drownings? Electrocutions while changing light bulbs? In Australia we could throw in fun­nel-web spiders and brown snakes. All the better to get people to focus on the real menace: an outbreak of Islamophobia in response to the attacks among the unenlightened masses.

This is pernicious nonsense. It is patently absurd to make statistical comparisons between deaths by accident, misadventure and disease with those resulting from deliberately orchestrated violence by groups determined to reshape our society.

Morally, there is no comparison between the inevitable accidents of life and planned slaughter. The terrorists responsible for the Manchester atrocity real­ly intended to kill and maim large numbers of teenage girls. People are profoundly unnerved, and rightly so, to think that we have people in our midst capable of forming this kind of evil intention and of carrying it out.

And, crucially, we are not just talking about individuals, the proverbial “lone wolves”. In case after case it turns out that the attacks are committed by organised cells, sometimes involving scores of people. In the case of the 2015 Paris attacks, for example, 23 arrests were made in addition to the eight who carried out the attacks.

Often the direct perpetrators are just the tip of the iceberg, with others providing weapons, safe houses and other support. This is a stark contrast with the rare cases of lethal anti-Islamic violence, which are almost invariably the work of lone individuals.

It is true, of course, that only a tiny minority of Muslims directly participates in these attacks, and most do not support them. But it takes only a handful of violent ­jihadists to cast a pall of fear over a society. I wonder if Krauss can point to any instances of feral ­fridges causing cities to go into lockdown, as happened in Boston, Paris and Brussels.

It is also sadly true that substantial minorities in some Muslim communities do identify with the perpetrators. After the Charlie Hebdo attacks, polls in France and Britain revealed that about one-quarter of Muslims expressed some level of sympathy for the terrorists, with support strongest among the young.

According to a poll of British Muslims commissioned by Channel 4, two-thirds of those asked would not report a terrorist plot involving someone close to them to the police, a result that the former chairman of Britain’s Equality and Human Rights Commis­sion, Trevor Phillips, described as “astonishing” and “troubling”.

Mao Zedong famously stated that in a guerilla war the fighters must move among the people “as a fish swims in the sea”. Suburbs such as Molenbeek in Brussels, where the Paris and Brussels terror attacks were incubated, provide just this kind of environment.

We need to also bear in mind the “sky’s the limit” mentality of ­jihadist attackers, in which catastrophically successful attacks such as the 9/11 World Trade Centre atrocity are the gold standard. Such attacks need a high level of organisation, technical competence and substantial financial backing. Those responsible would think nothing of inflict­ing hundreds of thousands or even millions of casualties, given the opportunity.

This forces Western governments to take extreme measures to ensure security, including legislative and surveillance measures that would not be contemplated in more benign circumstances.

In France, heavily armed troops patrol beaches in Nice; Jewish schools and synagogues resemble armed camps. In Britain troops were ordered on to streets after the Manchester bombing. In Melbourne ugly concrete bollards have been placed in 10 CBD locations to protect pedestrians from terror attacks. Our societies are being transformed by all this — and very much for the worse.

The most sinister aspect is the effective curbing of free speech. Starting with the fatwa against Salman Rushdie issued by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1989, any high-profile critic of Islam has had to face the prospect of death threats.

Many have felt the impact of this, from cartoonists (including this newspaper’s Bill Leak) to historians of Islam who challenge orthodox accounts, such as British author Tom Holland, who was subjected to what he called a “tsunami of death threats” against his family after the airing of a Channel 4 documentary about his ideas.

[highlight]At greatest risk are defectors from Islam, apostates such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who must take extraordinary security measures.[ /highlight]

pt1



Reclaim Australia was 10 years ago. Are right wing garbage still lying about Islam?
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