Australian Politics Forum - Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship

Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103445 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship Reply #120 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:23pm: On what basis will the High Court rule in his favour Bobby? I have asked you that previously, and you ignored the question. Now I have to repeat myself. In 1901 there was no such thing as an Australian citizen - that didn't happen till 1948.
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103445 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship Reply #121 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm *
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Dnarever

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #122 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:26pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:16pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:15pm:

If the drunken idiot renounced his NZ citizenship he was clearly in breach of the dual citizenship provision of the constitution.

You can't renounce something you never possessed. Clearly, he's renounced any right to claim NZ citizenship. Poor wording on the part of the DT.

Incorrect it has nothing to do with a right to claim citizenship. He is a citizen of NZ and has been since birth.

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Aussie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #123 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:27pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

On what basis will the High Court rule in his favour Bobby? I have asked you that previously, and you ignored the question.

Now I have to repeat myself.

In 1901 there was no such thing as an Australian citizen -
that didn't happen till 1948.

And that......will be why the High Court will let Joyce go?

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Aussie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #124 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:29pm

Dnarever wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:26pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:16pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:15pm:

If the drunken idiot renounced his NZ citizenship he was clearly in breach of the dual citizenship provision of the constitution.

You can't renounce something you never possessed. Clearly, he's renounced any right to claim NZ citizenship. Poor wording on the part of the DT.

Incorrect it has nothing to do with a right to claim citizenship. He is a citizen of NZ and has been since birth.

Cast your mind back to the days of internment. You can imagine being able to escape that by pleading ~ "No...let me go.....I did not know I was Japanese....even though my Old man is and I knew it."

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Bobby.

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #125 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:31pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:27pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

On what basis will the High Court rule in his favour Bobby? I have asked you that previously, and you ignored the question.

Now I have to repeat myself.

In 1901 there was no such thing as an Australian citizen -
that didn't happen till 1948.

And that......will be why the High Court will let Joyce go?

Yes the constitution is just plainly out of date from 1901.
It needs to be interpreted according to Australian citizenship
which was only handed out after 1948.

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Aussie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #126 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:31pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:27pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

On what basis will the High Court rule in his favour Bobby? I have asked you that previously, and you ignored the question.

Now I have to repeat myself.

In 1901 there was no such thing as an Australian citizen -
that didn't happen till 1948.

And that......will be why the High Court will let Joyce go?

Yes the constitution is just plainly out of date from 1901.
It needs to be interpreted according to Australian citizenship
which was only handed out after 1948.

Well, Bobby...you are in for a disappointment. If that point had any validity, it would have been argued in prior cases....and guess what?

It wasn't. Lawyers do not like being laughed at by those on the Bench.

So, If the High Court lets Joyce out on that ground.....yes, I'll acknowledge you predicted it.

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Dnarever

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #127 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:25pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:23pm:

On what basis will the High Court rule in his favour Bobby? I have asked you that previously, and you ignored the question.

Now I have to repeat myself.

In 1901 there was no such thing as an Australian citizen -
that didn't happen till 1948.

That would have helped Baaarnaby in 1947 unfortunately for him it is now much later than that.

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Bobby.

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #128 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:40pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:37pm:

Well, Bobby...you are in for a disappointment. If that point had any validity, it would have been argued in prior cases....and guess what?

It wasn't. Lawyers do not like being laughed at by those on the Bench.

So, If the High Court lets Joyce out on that ground.....yes, I'll acknowledge you predicted it.

Thanks.

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Dnarever

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #129 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:41pm

Quote:

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 44
Disqualification
               Any person who:
                  (i) is under any acknowledgment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power; or

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 45
Vacancy on happening of disqualification
               If a senator or member of the House of Representatives:
                  (i) becomes subject to any of the disabilities mentioned in the last preceding section; or

44 is saying that a citizen of anywhere else is not eligible to stand for election anybody in this position is disqualified.

45 is saying that if anyone is or becomes a foreign citizen their seat becomes vacant.

This is about as black and white as you can get, there is absolutely no wiggle room here.

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Auggie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #130 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:00pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 6:51pm:

Auggie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

The question also precedes on the basis that the High Court has made the wrong ruling?

Has the High Court made the wrong ruling?

These are the questions I'm asking you to engage in, not what the has already been done.

These are philosophical questions.

In which I am not interested. We have a Philosophy Section at OzPol, you know.

Then what do you like to talk about? As things are? When you made this thread, what was the purpose?

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Auggie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #131 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:04pm

Dnarever wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 7:41pm:

Quote:

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 44
Disqualification
               Any person who:
                  (i) is under any acknowledgment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power; or

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 45
Vacancy on happening of disqualification
               If a senator or member of the House of Representatives:
                  (i) becomes subject to any of the disabilities mentioned in the last preceding section; or

44 is saying that a citizen of anywhere else is not eligible to stand for election anybody in this position is disqualified.

45 is saying that if anyone is or becomes a foreign citizen their seat becomes vacant.

This is about as black and white as you can get, there is absolutely no wiggle room here.

Dnarever, NZ is not a foreign power. We think it is, because we like to think that we're an independent nation. The problem is that Australia is an inheritor of the British model of governance for its colonies (thanks to the Durham Report).

The term 'foreign power' in the Constitution was never meant to be construed as referring to UK, NZ, Canada etc.

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Aussie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #132 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:14pm

Auggie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 6:51pm:

Auggie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 6:49pm:

The question also precedes on the basis that the High Court has made the wrong ruling?

Has the High Court made the wrong ruling?

These are the questions I'm asking you to engage in, not what the has already been done.

These are philosophical questions.

In which I am not interested. We have a Philosophy Section at OzPol, you know.

Then what do you like to talk about? As things are? When you made this thread, what was the purpose?

To ensure everyone was aware that Joyce

HAD

NZ Citizenship.....and was not merely entitled to it.

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Aussie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #133 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:19pm

Quote:

The term 'foreign power' in the Constitution was never meant to be construed as referring to UK, NZ, Canada etc.

And yet.....the High Court has found that S 44 related to the UK and described it as a foreign power. [Sue v Hill (1999)]

Get your Monarchist head out of the sand and smell the roses, Ceasar!

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Auggie

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Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #134 - Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:21pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 16^th, 2017 at 8:19pm:

Quote:

The term 'foreign power' in the Constitution was never meant to be construed as referring to UK, NZ, Canada etc.

And yet.....the High Court has found that S 44 related to the UK and described it as a foreign power. [Sue v Hill (1999)]

Get your Monarchist head out of the sand and smell the roses, Ceasar!

The High Court can rule anything, Aussie, and it's final, even if it's blatantly wrong.

Get your Status-Quo head of the sand and open your eyes.

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