Australian Politics Forum - Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 38534
Gender: male

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #15 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:26pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:16pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:15pm:

If the drunken idiot renounced his NZ citizenship he was clearly in breach of the dual citizenship provision of the constitution.

You can't renounce something you never possessed. Clearly, he's renounced any right to claim NZ citizenship. Poor wording on the part of the DT.

No....In Parliament today during QT......Joyce said that over the week-end he had taken steps to renounce his NZ citizenship......NOT his entitlement to it.

Back to top

IP Logged

Francis

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 595
Gender: female

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #16 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:56pm

lee wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:01pm:

"Justices of the High Court are, by nature of their appointment, some of the wisest legal minds in the land. So supposing how they may rule is fraught.

But if the High Court was to start saying everyone entitled to foreign citizenship was ineligible, it would wipe out a swathe of our MPs and senators who have never tried to claim allegiance to any other county.

Surely the Court would have to take into account the practical effect of making that judgment, and the ensuing chaos it would cause.
Could you be a dual citizen without realising?

There are multiple ways you can get citizenship, and the rules are confusing.

Case law too suggests the need to act on any eligibility."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-28/citizenship-grey-area-in-constitution-trip...

Your ABC wouldn't lie; would it?

I think the high court will rule on a point of law not try and predict the future of it's decisions

Back to top

No tenemos miedo!

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 38534
Gender: male

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #17 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:05pm

Francis wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:56pm:

lee wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:01pm:

"Justices of the High Court are, by nature of their appointment, some of the wisest legal minds in the land. So supposing how they may rule is fraught.

But if the High Court was to start saying everyone entitled to foreign citizenship was ineligible, it would wipe out a swathe of our MPs and senators who have never tried to claim allegiance to any other county.

Surely the Court would have to take into account the practical effect of making that judgment, and the ensuing chaos it would cause.
Could you be a dual citizen without realising?

There are multiple ways you can get citizenship, and the rules are confusing.

Case law too suggests the need to act on any eligibility."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-28/citizenship-grey-area-in-constitution-trip...

Your ABC wouldn't lie; would it?

I think the high court will rule on a point of law not try and predict the future of it's decisions

You are correct. The High Court will have zero regard for the consequences of how they rule on the Law.

They will try to make sense of Section 44 and I reckon that is simple....the Constitution requires that a MP have ONE loyalty....that is, to Australia...and not (even without knowing at a particular time.......that is far too easy to claim.......) have either citizenship or entitlement to citizenship of a foreign power.

I say they must have an honest and reasonable belief that their only entitlement/citizenship was to Australia.

I say that, given Joyce knew his Old Man was a Kiwi, therefore he had a positive obligation to make full enquiry about his position and then deal with it by renunciation.

Putting head in sand/ignoring/blind eye is not good enough.

Back to top

IP Logged

Prime Minister for Canyons

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 26906
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #18 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:09pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:16pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 3:15pm:

If the drunken idiot renounced his NZ citizenship he was clearly in breach of the dual citizenship provision of the constitution.

You can't renounce something you never possessed. Clearly, he's renounced any right to claim NZ citizenship. Poor wording on the part of the DT.

Hang on criticising the Telegraph? WHo are you and what have you done with the real Armchair politician.

Back to top

In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

IP Logged

Francis Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 595 Gender:	Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship Reply #19 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:12pm Hi Aussie, could he mount a defense that the GG or Australian people failed in its duty of care by not ensuring he was suitable to be a MP? If I apply for a job fraudulently and I'm hired. That's actually partly the business fault is it not?
Back to top	No tenemos miedo! IP Logged

cods

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88048

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #20 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:14pm

I am not sure why he would know he was a NZ citz in their eyes..he was born here and lived here all his life..

why wouldnt he think he was just a citz of Australia...

just because another crazy country has weird ideas on citizenship.....why is it the persons fault who is caught up in it......

I have Australian citzship...but I was born in England so if need be I would need to renounce that....I can understand why I am still a citz of England as far as a registry is concerned...

but my family are all born here....it wouldnt occur to me they are registered anywhere else...or them for that matter why would it?..

Back to top

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 38534
Gender: male

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #21 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:23pm

Francis wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:12pm:

Hi Aussie, could he mount a defense that the GG or Australian people failed in its duty of care by not ensuring he was suitable to be a MP?

If I apply for a job fraudulently and I'm hired. That's actually partly the business fault is it not?

No....it is his obligation to comply with S 44 and when he nominates for an election, he signs off that he is not disqualified by S 44.

Link.

Back to top

IP Logged

Aussie

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 38534
Gender: male

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #22 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:27pm

cods wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:14pm:

I am not sure why he would know he was a NZ citz in their eyes..he was born here and lived here all his life..

why wouldnt he think he was just a citz of Australia...

just because another crazy country has weird ideas on citizenship.....why is it the persons fault who is caught up in it......

I have Australian citzship...but I was born in England so if need be I would need to renounce that....I can understand why I am still a citz of England as far as a registry is concerned...

but my family are all born here....it wouldnt occur to me they are registered anywhere else...or them for that matter why would it?..

I should have occurred to Joyce (or any reasonable person) that he may have had some rights....because his Old Man is a Kiwi.

Back to top

IP Logged

Neferti

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 7965
Canberra
Gender: female

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #23 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:28pm

cods wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:14pm:

I am not sure why he would know he was a NZ citz in their eyes..he was born here and lived here all his life..

why wouldnt he think he was just a citz of Australia...

just because another crazy country has weird ideas on citizenship.....why is it the persons fault who is caught up in it......

I have Australian citzship...but I was born in England so if need be I would need to renounce that....I can understand why I am still a citz of England as far as a registry is concerned...

but my family are all born here....it wouldnt occur to me they are registered anywhere else...or them for that matter why would it?..

It is a bunch of nonsense ... I caught (accidentally) some Airhead on one of the News Channels mentioning "even if you are a 5 Generation Australian" that you could still be ineligible to be a Politician. I almost wet myself laughing. How many 5 Generation Aussies do we have, those that were shipped here for stealing a loaf of bread? Is having an ancestor who was "sent" here a crime now? Mine came out in 1852 to search for GOLD!

Absolute rubbish and it is no wonder I do NOT watch TV News ... I check the online newspapers where I can pick and choose which article I WILL read.

Back to top

IP Logged

Neferti

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 7965
Canberra
Gender: female

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #24 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:32pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

cods wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:14pm:

I am not sure why he would know he was a NZ citz in their eyes..he was born here and lived here all his life..

why wouldnt he think he was just a citz of Australia...

just because another crazy country has weird ideas on citizenship.....why is it the persons fault who is caught up in it......

I have Australian citzship...but I was born in England so if need be I would need to renounce that....I can understand why I am still a citz of England as far as a registry is concerned...

but my family are all born here....it wouldnt occur to me they are registered anywhere else...or them for that matter why would it?..

I should have occurred to Joyce (or any reasonable person) that he may have had some rights....because his Old Man is a Kiwi.

Give it a break! Men don't even think about their ancestry until they "retire" ... he was born in TAMWORTH .... he's an Aussie and I doubt that he knew that having a Dad born in NZ was of any concern.

This is becoming really really stupid.

The High Court has to sort this out, pronto. Grin

Back to top

IP Logged

Francis

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 595
Gender: female

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #25 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:35pm

Hi cods, before becoming a member of parliament they complete necessary paperwork and one of the questions is are they a dual citizen.
It's expected they take the time too find out. Some still believe it's a important job and respect our laws.

Others it would seem do not

Obviously events are showing they can't be trusted and we need independent audited background checks before we let anyone in

Back to top

No tenemos miedo!

IP Logged

cods

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88048

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #26 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:38pm

Neferti wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:27pm:

cods wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:14pm:

I am not sure why he would know he was a NZ citz in their eyes..he was born here and lived here all his life..

why wouldnt he think he was just a citz of Australia...

just because another crazy country has weird ideas on citizenship.....why is it the persons fault who is caught up in it......

I have Australian citzship...but I was born in England so if need be I would need to renounce that....I can understand why I am still a citz of England as far as a registry is concerned...

but my family are all born here....it wouldnt occur to me they are registered anywhere else...or them for that matter why would it?..

I should have occurred to Joyce (or any reasonable person) that he may have had some rights....because his Old Man is a Kiwi.

Give it a break! Men don't even think about their ancestry until they "retire" ... he was born in TAMWORTH .... he's an Aussie and I doubt that he knew that having a Dad born in NZ was of any concern.

This is becoming really really stupid.

The High Court has to sort this out, pronto. Grin

I agree... we would have just about every bloody australian gueuing up at every Embassy/consulate wondering if their name is on someone elses list of citizens it doesnt make any sense at all...

sure they should have Australian citizenship.....but crikey ..how far back are we going...

it took Obama a while to come up with his birth cert...but didnt he have parents born overseas... Roll Eyes

... wonder if they checked that out.

Back to top

IP Logged

Neferti Gold Member Offline Posts: 7965 Canberra Gender:	Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship Reply #27 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:42pm Perhaps I should call myself Scottish since that is where my ancestors came from, 165 years ago.
Back to top	IP Logged

cods

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88048

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #28 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:43pm

Francis wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:35pm:

Hi cods, before becoming a member of parliament they complete necessary paperwork and one of the questions is are they a dual citizen.
It's expected they take the time too find out. Some still believe it's a important job and respect our laws.

Others it would seem do not

Obviously events are showing they can't be trusted and we need independent audited background checks before we let anyone in

honestly francis I disagree if I was born ion Tamworth and had not applied for citizenship of any other country... I would automatically say NO to that question...

why on earth would you think otherwise.....

my youngest grandson was born in NZ to Australian parents.....they immediately had him made and Australian citiz is he also classified as a NZ citz....if he ever went for parliament he would have to look wouldnt he..

its ridiculous....our rules are not francis....

what I am saying is for another country to just do that without notifying any one.....is bizarre..

Back to top

IP Logged

cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship Reply #29 - Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:43pm Neferti wrote on Aug 15^th, 2017 at 4:42pm: Perhaps I should call myself Scottish since that is where my ancestors came from, 195 years ago. if you plan to throw your hat in the ring down the road next election I suggest you check it out...
Back to top	IP Logged