Australian Politics Forum - American Supreme Court is better ....

Panther Gold Member Offline My Heart beats True for the Red White & Blue... Posts: 11399 Gender:	Re: American Supreme Court is better .... Reply #15 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:24pm You never learn do ya LW58. You're on my "Personal Ignore" list, where I see nothing that you post except that you posted, & there you will stay until I say otherwise.....
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Panther

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #16 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:38pm

@

Sir Bobby

.....Now, knowing what the American Supreme Court does, I completely agree with you, that the American Supreme Court is better than the Australian High Court.......

I also would agree that A Constitutional Republic is a far, far better form of Government than is a Constitutional Monarchy, primarily because it contains a Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) which does not bestow any rights, it simply defends the existing natural rights of the people from the abuses of government/queen/king/etc..... by forbidding government from trampling on the natural rights of the people it exists to serve.

In America the government's legitimacy and moral right to use state power is only justified & legal when consented to by the people as clearly written in it's Constitution.....

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:44pm by Panther »

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74291 Gender:	Re: American Supreme Court is better .... Reply #17 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:56pm Dnarever wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 1:36pm: Neither Barnaby or Nash are legally elected representatives, this fact is not in question. There is nothing to appeal. Read today that Nick Xenophons british citizenship was confirmed. That rules him out too.
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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #18 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:00pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:09pm:

Well, as always, you are dead wrong, not only factually but in your opinion.

The Supreme court CANNOT change law and nor can our High court. But because Americans are republicans or democrats long before they are citizens, the SCOTUS becomes deeply political which is a bad thing. The 2000 election proved that when a poltiical decision was made to put GWB into office and to literally refuse to count the votes.

Why would anyone - even a stupid drongo like bobby - want an unelected, unscrutinised lifetime appointment body like a High Court to be able to make law?

Brighter people that you long ago worked out that it would be a very bad thing although to be fair, you dont have to be very bright to work that out.

Longy - you're wrong -

before Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal in many states.

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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #19 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:04pm

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:38pm:

@

Sir Bobby

.....Now, knowing what the American Supreme Court does, I completely agree with you, that the American Supreme Court is better than the Australian High Court.......

I also would agree that A Constitutional Republic is a far, far better form of Government than is a Constitutional Monarchy, primarily because it contains a Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) which does not bestow any rights, it simply defends the existing natural rights of the people from the abuses of government/queen/king/etc..... by forbidding government from trampling on the natural rights of the people it exists to serve.

In America the government's legitimacy and moral right to use state power is only justified & legal when consented to by the people as clearly written in it's Constitution.....

Thanks Panther,
yes - our High Court is inferior.

Barnaby Joyce wasn't even aware of the law in NZ.

Just because of an obscure law in another country that hardly anyone knew about
our Government could be overthrown by our High Court -

that's if they take section 44 literally.

Quote:

44. Any person who -

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: or

(ii.) Is attainted of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer: or

(iii.) Is an undischarged bankrupt or insolvent: or

(iv.) Holds any office of profit under the Crown, or any pension payable during the pleasure of the Crown out of any of the revenues of the Commonwealth: or

(v.) Has any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any agreement with the Public Service of the Commonwealth otherwise than as a member and in common with the other members of an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty-five persons:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

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Panther

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #20 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:25pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:04pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 3:38pm:

@

Sir Bobby

.....Now, knowing what the American Supreme Court does, I completely agree with you, that the American Supreme Court is better than the Australian High Court.......

I also would agree that A Constitutional Republic is a far, far better form of Government than is a Constitutional Monarchy, primarily because it contains a Bill of Rights (the first 10 Amendments) which does not bestow any rights, it simply defends the existing natural rights of the people from the abuses of government/queen/king/etc..... by forbidding government from trampling on the natural rights of the people it exists to serve.

In America the government's legitimacy and moral right to use state power is only justified & legal when consented to by the people as clearly written in it's Constitution.....

Thanks Panther,
yes - our High Court is inferior.

Barnaby Joyce wasn't even aware of the law in NZ.

Just because of an obscure law in another country that hardly anyone knew about
our Government could be overthrown by our High Court -

that's if they take section 44 literally.

Quote:

44. Any person who -

(i.) Is under any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or citizen of a foreign power: or

(ii.) Is attainted of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer: or

(iii.) Is an undischarged bankrupt or insolvent: or

(iv.) Holds any office of profit under the Crown, or any pension payable during the pleasure of the Crown out of any of the revenues of the Commonwealth: or

(v.) Has any direct or indirect pecuniary interest in any agreement with the Public Service of the Commonwealth otherwise than as a member and in common with the other members of an incorporated company consisting of more than twenty-five persons:

shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

Now, this is extremely important, what was the "Original Intent" of the framers of that section of law?

Was it intended to be taken completely literal, regardless of circumstance?

~~ OR ~~

Was it instituted so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens in Australia, to itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia?

If all this insanity hadn't come to pass in the first place, Barnaby Joyce would have probably never known he was a defacto citizen of New Zealand simply because or due to the location of his father's birth & not his own.

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:37pm by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #21 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:42pm

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:25pm:

Now, this is extremely important, what was the "Original Intent" of the framers of that section of law?

Was it intended to be taken completely literal, regardless of circumstance?

~~ OR ~~

Was it instituted so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens in Australia, to itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia?

If all this insanity hadn't come to pass in the first place, Barnaby Joyce would have probably never known he was a defacto citizen of New Zealand simply because or due to the location of his father's birth & not his own.

The original writers of the constitution could not have foreseen this circumstance.
According to Aussie - our only lawyer on Ozpolitic -
Joyce is finished as the High Court can't change the law as it's written.

This is why the Supreme Court of the USA is better.
We need to have a new law which allows our High Court to
re-write our law when there are unintended consequences.

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Panther

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #22 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:54pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:42pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:25pm:

Now, this is extremely important, what was the "Original Intent" of the framers of that section of law?

Was it intended to be taken completely literal, regardless of circumstance?

~~ OR ~~

Was it instituted so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens in Australia, to itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia?

If all this insanity hadn't come to pass in the first place, Barnaby Joyce would have probably never known he was a defacto citizen of New Zealand simply because or due to the location of his father's birth & not his own.

The original writers of the constitution could not have foreseen this circumstance.
According to Aussie - our only lawyer on Ozpolitic -
Joyce is finished as the High Court can't change the law as it's written.

This is why the Supreme Court of the USA is better.
We need to have a new law which allows our High Court to
re-write our law when there are unintended consequences.

Or, not a new law but a simple interpretation of that old law, that doesn't change it one bit, along the lines of my second paragraph, that the law was designed to protect Australia so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens within Australia, unto itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia.

Does that not seem more reasonable to a reasonable people not out to bring down Australia?

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:09pm by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #23 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:57pm

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:54pm:

Or, not a new law but a simple interpretation of that old law, that doesn't change it one bit, along the lines of my second paragraph, that the law was designed to protect Australia so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens within Australia, unto itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia.

Does that not seem more reasonable to a reasonable people not out to bring down Australia?

Yes of course - but if our high Court takes it literally then our
Govt. will be overthrown.

Labor will be back & shortarse will be the new PM.

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Panther

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #24 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:17pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:57pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:54pm:

Or, not a new law but a simple interpretation of that old law, that doesn't change it one bit, along the lines of my second paragraph, that the law was designed to protect Australia so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens within Australia, unto itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia.

Does that not seem more reasonable to a reasonable people not out to bring down Australia?

Yes of course - but if our high Court takes it literally then our
Govt. will be overthrown.

Labor will be back & shortarse will be the new PM.

That's only if the Australian Patriots stand by & do nothing.....letting it happen without recourse, legally or otherwise.

A lot of people can't understand why Americans insist on keeping the Second Amendment.....9,000+ lives a year give or take........no, it's not only to protect their families from criminals & others wishing them physical harm....to hunt game, or for sport.

No it's to protect them from a government that doesn't respect their will & their rights.....not just to shoot all their representatives, senators, & judges....no not just that.....that's an absolute last resort, but to have leverage.... to give their government something to think about, to wonder when, & if, the American People would use those firearms on them as their Founding Fathers envisioned might someday be necessary......That's leverage.

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:23pm by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #25 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:21pm

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:17pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:57pm:

Panther wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 4:54pm:

Or, not a new law but a simple interpretation of that old law, that doesn't change it one bit, along the lines of my second paragraph, that the law was designed to protect Australia so that no external foreign government or power could call upon allegiance of it's citizens within Australia, unto itself, to offset & override the sovereign will of Australia.

Does that not seem more reasonable to a reasonable people not out to bring down Australia?

Yes of course - but if our high Court takes it literally then our
Govt. will be overthrown.

Labor will be back & shortarse will be the new PM.

That's only if the Australian Patriots stand by & do nothing.....letting it happen without recourse, legally or otherwise.

A lot of people can't understand why Americans keep the Second Amendment.....it's not only to protect their families from criminals & others wishing them physical harm....

No it's to protect them from a government that doesn't respect their will & their rights.....not just to shoot all their representatives, senators, & judges....no not just that.....that's an absolute last resort, but to have leverage.... to give their government something to think about, to wonder when, & if, the American People would use those firearms on them as their Founding Fathers envisioned might someday be necessary......That's leverage.

This could get as big as 1975 & Whitlam.
The GG might have to step in.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38534 Gender:	Re: American Supreme Court is better .... Reply #26 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:22pm Quote: According to Aussie - our only lawyer on Ozpolitic - Joyce is finished as the High Court can't change the law as it's written. I have never said that.....and I am not the only the only lawyer here.
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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #27 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:31pm

Aussie wrote on Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:22pm:

Quote:

According to Aussie - our only lawyer on Ozpolitic -
Joyce is finished as the High Court can't change the law as it's written.

I have never said that.....and I am not the only lawyer here.

Aussie,
Not directly but you implied it:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1502772343/90

Aussie
Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #102 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 5:01pm
Quote:

And yes....those are the facts....just like it is a fact that New Zealand is a foreign power, and that will be confirmed in the High Court...yet again.

And also in many other parts of that thread.
Do I have to copy & paste everything?

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Bobby.

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Re: American Supreme Court is better ....
Reply #28 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:36pm

Aussie,

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1502772343/15

Re: Joyce renounces NZ Citizenship
Reply #17 - Aug 15th, 2017 at 4:05pm
Quote:

You are correct. The High Court will have zero regard for the consequences of how they rule on the Law.

They will try to make sense of Section 44 and I reckon that is simple....the Constitution requires that a MP have ONE loyalty....that is, to Australia...and not (even without knowing at a particular time.......that is far too easy to claim.......) have either citizenship or entitlement to citizenship of a foreign power.

I say they must have an honest and reasonable belief that their only entitlement/citizenship was to Australia.

I say that, given Joyce knew his Old Man was a Kiwi, therefore he had a positive obligation to make full enquiry about his position and then deal with it by renunciation.

Putting head in sand/ignoring/blind eye is not good enough.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38534 Gender:	Re: American Supreme Court is better .... Reply #29 - Aug 20^th, 2017 at 5:36pm That NZ is a foreign power is just part of the deal, Bobby. There is also whether Joyce took all reasonable steps to renounce, and there are several aspects of that.
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Poll
Question: Is the USA Supreme Court better than our High Court?
* This poll has now closed *
Yes 6 (50.0%) No 6 (50.0%) I'm not sure - it's too complicated. 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 12 « Created by: Bobby. on: Aug 20^th, 2017 at 6:15pm »