Australian Politics Forum - "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"

Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83875 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #75 - Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 10:27pm Rubbish - of course they can........
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

AiA

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 18405
Gender: male

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #76 - Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:18pm

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 2:07pm:

How is it trolling to try to raise awareness about animals being considered by law not to feel pain or emotions?

I would say the trolling has come from Cods, Gordon and AiA, yes?

Mothra, it is clear to everyone that you make these make provocative opening posts to incite trolling then follow up with other posts to keep the schitt storm going. Rather than going this route, why don't you try a stool softener or enema?

Back to top

“Jerry, just remember: It’s not a lie … if you believe it.” George Costanza

IP Logged

UnSubRocky Gold Member Offline Crocodile Hunter: Origins Posts: 24637 Rockhampton Gender:	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #77 - Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:37pm Our former family dog would get all distressed at seeing my father walk out the gates and head to the shops. His problem was that this was a "walkies" opportunity. Sometimes I think the dog assumed that dad was just hiding around the corner playing a nasty joke on him.
Back to top	At this stage... IP Logged

Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #78 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 1:45am Hauling netfuls of prawns out of the sea in the middle of the night and then immediately dumping them into cauldrons of boiling water hardly seems like dignified assisted euthanasia to me. No Last Rites - nothing.
Back to top	IP Logged

The Heartless Felon

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 2869
Gender: male

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #79 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 7:04am

“Flowers scream when they are picked”

While James Bond and Gala Brand are having their afternoon together and getting to know one another a little bit in Moonraker, Gala picks a bee orchis.

“You wouldn’t do that if you knew that flowers scream when they are picked,” said Bond.

Gala looked at him. “What do you mean?” she asked, suspecting a joke.

“Didn’t you know?” He smiled at her reaction. “There’s an Indian called Professor Bhose, who’s written a treatise on the nervous system of flowers. He measured their reaction to pain. He even recorded the scream of a rose being picked. It must be one of the most heartrending sounds in the world. I heard something like it as you picked that flower.”

Our Mr Bond certainly is a wealth of information! The reference here is to Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose, (1858-1937) the founder of Bose Institute, who in addition to being a pioneer in the field of radio, and an early writer of science fiction, was also a botanist who indeed did embark on a study of plants and their reaction to pain.

Back to top

IP Logged

mothra

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 35293
Gender: female

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #80 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 8:40am

AiA wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:18pm:

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 2:07pm:

How is it trolling to try to raise awareness about animals being considered by law not to feel pain or emotions?

I would say the trolling has come from Cods, Gordon and AiA, yes?

Mothra, it is clear to everyone that you make these make provocative opening posts to incite trolling then follow up with other posts to keep the schitt storm going. Rather than going this route, why don't you try a stool softener or enema?

And as with everything else you have said about me, you are quite wrong.

I started this thread because i was appalled that in 2017, with all that we know, this has passed into law.

And the thread got trolled ... because it was started by me.

Perhaps you can take note of the actual discussion i have had with those who chose to comment sensibly?

Back to top

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

IP Logged

mothra

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 35293
Gender: female

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #81 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 8:58am

The emotional depth of a cow

Who would think that beneath that calm exterior there is a boiling mass of emotions? I'm not talking about Wimbledon champions here, but cows. Yes, cows; those creatures that we eat, and take milk from, but rarely think about. According to new research by scientists at Northampton University, cows have "best friends" and get stressed when separated.

In his book The Cow, the former butcher and poet Beat Sterchi invented an adjective to describe the way that cows stand placidly – "cowpeaceably". If you watch cows lying down in a field they will normally be ruminating (chewing on regurgitated grass), staring blankly into space and looking totally at peace. This state of total calmness makes the cow appear withdrawn and "otherworldly". This is perhaps why we assume there is nothing much going on between a cow's ears.

But we cow lovers have always known that cows have emotional depth. DH Lawrence wrote brilliantly about his relationship with Susan, a black cow that he milked every morning in 1924-5 on his ranch in Taos, New Mexico. He comments on her "cowy oblivion", her "cow inertia", her "cowy passivity" and her "cowy peace" and he wonders where she goes to in her trances. But he believes, quite rightly, that there is always "a certain untouched chaos in her", which is never far away. Some days, he writes, she is "fractious, tiresome, and a faggot". This is because she will deliberately do things to annoy him, such as swinging her tail in his face during milking: "So sometimes she swings it, just on purpose: and looks at me out of the black corner of her great, pure-black eye, when I yell at her."

To anyone who works, or has worked, with cows, it comes as no surprise that cows are capable of friendships. Within any herd there is a pecking order that results in cows coming into the milking parlour every time in more or less the same position in the queue. At the dairy farm I worked on as an agricultural student we had "Devilish Delilah", "Crafty Caroline" and "Pain-In-The-Arse Mary-Rose" – all of which were nicknamed because of their annoying or aggressive antics at milking time or feeding time. Dominant cows will push their way to the front of the queue, bully and intimidate more sensitive souls, and dictate when and where the group will move around their pasture. No submissive cow would want to be their "best friend".

Certain cows will always be the ring leaders when trouble occurs – bulldozing fences until they give way is often found out by accident, but then pursued with great joy by the felons. And woe betide anyone who gets in the way of a protective mother and her calf; she'll knock you for six and reverse over you for good measure.

But there are also the gentler cows who always appreciate a scratch behind the ear as you go past and the cows that Temple Grandin, the animal scientist, would describe as "curiously afraid". These cows, and most do exhibit this behaviour, will be curious of any new thing but terrified of it at the same time. The braver ones will come forward to investigate first, but will stand at such a distance that their necks and tongues will be stretched out as far as possible so they don't have to be too close. They will snort, sniff and try to lick the novelty until they decide after about 15 minutes that they are bored and will wander off. There's a lot going on between those hairy ears.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jul/07/cows-best-friends

Back to top

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

IP Logged

cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #82 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:00am it ISNT OUR LAW!
Back to top	IP Logged

mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35293 Gender:	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #83 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:01am cods wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:00am: it ISNT OUR LAW! And?
Back to top	If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning. IP Logged

cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #84 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:03am mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:01am: cods wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:00am: it ISNT OUR LAW! And? you are upset about a foreign countries laws.. what would you have us do?... no I do not like or approve animal cruelty.. but what can I do to stop other countries from doing what they choose to do?..
Back to top	IP Logged

mothra

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 35293
Gender: female

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #85 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:04am

cods wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:03am:

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:01am:

cods wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:00am:

it ISNT OUR LAW!

And?

you are upset about a foreign countries laws..

what would you have us do?...

no I do not like or approve animal cruelty..

but what can I do to stop other countries from doing what they choose to do?..

Do you ask everyone who starts a thread on something what we are supposed to do about it? Or just me?

I notice you ask me alot, is all.

Back to top

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 29297
Gender: male

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #86 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:07am

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:19am:

Gordon wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:14am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:05am:

I lost the bet with myself.

"Which moron will try to show how macho he is by saying something about how tasty animals are, or how much fun they are to shoot - Gordon or Baronvonrort?", I asked.

Baron was my choice - I was wrong.

Now tell me about that vegan pork knuckle you love so much

It ain't vegan.

And I ain't so insecure that I need to keep telling people how macho I am.

but you compensate by telling/showing people how much of a knowall you are Roll Eyes

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged

AiA Gold Member Offline Posts: 18405 Gender:	Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion" Reply #87 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:07am The thought of farm animals in rigor mortis makes me nauseated, as does the thought of Moths and her belligerence.
Back to top	“Jerry, just remember: It’s not a lie … if you believe it.” George Costanza IP Logged

mothra

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 35293
Gender: female

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #88 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:10am

Pigs are Intelligent, Emotional, and Cognitively Complex

A recent review of research on pigs shows they are complex sentient beings

Thinking Pigs

Pigs are extremely interesting animals. They're able to solve challenging problems, they love to play, they display a wide range of emotions, and they have unique individual personalities. Until now, many of the data stemming from detailed behavioral studies of pigs have been scattered about in scholarly literature (link is external), in popular essays and summaries (link is external), or summarized in books including Sy Montgomery's The Good Good Pig: The Extraordinary Life of Christopher Hogwood (link is external) and Barry Estabrook's Pig Tales: An Omnivore's Quest for Sustainable Meat (link is external), a book I recently reviewed. I also considered some aspects of pig "smarts" and emotions and what we can make of comparisons among different species in an essay called "Are Pigs as Smart as Dogs and Does It Really Matter?" A good deal of research on pigs centers on their welfare, because pigs are used globally for food and are treated none too kindly.

I love pigs and try to keep current on research on these fascinating animals. Thus, I was thrilled to learn of a review essay published just this week by researchers Lori Marino and Christina M. Colvin called "Thinking Pigs: A Comparative Review of Cognition, Emotion, and Personality in Sus domesticus (link is external)." Because this paper is available online, my main purpose is to call attention to this most valuable review article and to highlight some of its very interesting and fascinating findings.

The summary of the above essay reads: While relatively little is known about the psychology of domestic pigs, what is known suggests that pigs are cognitively complex and share many traits with animals whom we consider intelligent. This paper reviews the scientific evidence for cognitive complexity in domestic pigs and, when appropriate, compares this literature with similar findings in other animals, focusing on some of the more compelling and cutting-edge research results. The goals of this paper are to: 1) frame pig cognition and psychology in a basic comparative context independent of the livestock production and management setting; and 2) identify areas of research with pigs that are particularly compelling and in need of further investigation. ... We conclude that there are several areas of research in which the findings are suggestive of complex psychology in pigs. We conclude by calling for more noninvasive cognitive and behavioral research with domestic pigs in non-laboratory settings that allow them to express their natural abilities.

To accomplish its goals, "Thinking Pigs" considers a wide variety of topics including the domestication of pigs, their sensory abilities, learning skills, time perception, spatial learning and memory, novelty seeking, inquisitiveness and play, social cognition and complexity, self-awareness, and personality. The authors conclude, "Pigs display consistent behavioral and emotional characteristics that have been described variously as personality. e.g., coping styles, response types, temperament, and behavioral tendencies." Concerning the emotional lives of pigs they note, "Some of the more interesting studies demonstrating emotional contagion in pigs involve responses to other pigs’ anticipation of positive or negative events, revealing the importance of social factors in emotion. In one study, naïve test pigs were exposed to pen mates who had been trained to anticipate upcoming rewarding events (receiving straw and chocolate raisins) or aversive events (social isolation). When the naïve pigs were placed in the company of the trained pigs they adopted the same emotional anticipatory behaviors (e.g., ear and tail postures, increased cortisol release) as the trained pigs with the direct experience. These findings show that not only can pigs connect with the emotions of other pigs, but they can also do so with pigs who are responding emotionally in anticipation of future events (Reimert, Bolhuis, Kemp, & Rodenburg, 2013)."

"Thinking Pigs" not only summarizes much of what is known about pig cognition and emotions, but it also suggests areas in which future research is needed so that we can learn more about pigs and see how they compare to other animals. These areas include:

Discrimination and comprehension of symbolism and the meaning of various combinations and sequences of symbolic cues.

The ability to not only anticipate an event but to prepare or plan for an event behaviorally.

The capacity for numerical understanding, particular in a foraging situation.

Play and exploration and how different forms are combined and are related to social relationships.

Taking the perspective of a conspecific or human, including understanding eye and head orientation as it relates to attention.

Understanding and using pointing and other indicating actions by humans.

Parameters of emotional contagion and the presence of cognitive empathy.

Personality structure as it compares with other species, including humans.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201506/pigs-are-intelligent...

Back to top

If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

IP Logged

Gnads

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 29297
Gender: male

Re: "Animals can't feel pain or emotion"
Reply #89 - Nov 23^rd, 2017 at 9:11am

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2017 at 11:54am:

What does eating meat have to do with it being passed into law that animals don't feel pain or have emotion, Cods?

Do you think if we concede that animals are sentient, people would feel bad about eating them?

Do you not think animals are sentient?

Obviously you ignored what she wrote in her first couple of lines.

Its done to appease a certain group who treat animals very cruelly whilst handling them and even more so when slaughtering.

The UK export to those countries and have large internal populations of that group.

Back to top

"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

IP Logged