Australian Politics Forum - trees rocks talk donkeys fly

polite_gandalf

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #330 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Thanks Gandalf. Now here's a Muslim with nothing to hide.

Oh you need a translation FD? Sorry I keep forgetting someone who clearly is so knowledgable in an arabic text - doesn't actually know any arabic.

No worries...

[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

"whoever has assaulted you"
"assault him in the same way"

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

Again, feel free to re-read (or just read) my explanation of the verse, along with explanations of the actual arabic used.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49730 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #331 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:14pm There are several declarations throughout the chapter. That verse 1 is intended to limit the scope of the whole chapter is nothing but irrational and wishful thinking on your part.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #332 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:18pm Oh I know FD - so terribly irrational to think that the opening sentence of the opening verse could possibly be setting the scope for the entire chapter.
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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #333 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:19pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 11:55am:

Quote:

because it refers specifically to those with whom a treaty has been made

The scope of chapter 9 is not, as Gandalf claims, limited to those with whom there is a treaty. Read the chapter. It simply does not make sense to conclude that.

Ghengis Khan offered protection to those who surrendered to him without a fight. This is not that same as saying he only conducted war in self defence and limited himself to a proportional response. It is standard divide and conquer military strategy - offer each group of enemies a choice between being slaughtered and joining you and sharing the spoils of your war.

Even a protection racketeer could put the same spin on their vile activities that Muslims do on the Quran and the actions of Muhammad. That is pretty much what Islam is. The "protection" that non-Muslims must be forced to seek is from Muslims under the compulsion to rape and pillage.

Once they were no longer a military and political threat or impediment to Muhammad's expanding empire, it made sense for Muhammad to incorporate those who remained alive into his state. It was how he imposed his religion on them, not to mention a good strategy for acquiring sex slaves. Note that in every passage Gandalf uses to justify his absurd claims, there is an onus on Muslims to go out and slaughter, and an onus on enemies to pursue peace. It is the protection of someone who wants to strip every right from you and take advantage of you in every way, in exchange for kindly sparing your life.

What you need to fundamentally understand is that Muhammad engaged in 'preemptive' warfare. His goal was to establish an Islamic State in which Muslims would be protected (much like the Jewish State of Israel today). This involved attacking his 'perceived' enemies and uniting the Arabian peninsula.

The community at the time was also tribal, and was therefore governed by tribal rules and practices. Unbelief or disbelief was considered to be a crime because it directly threaten the tribe in question and risked that person going over to the other tribe. It was the same principal in the Torah - cursing one's father or mother, or leaving the tribe was punishable by death. When your community is continually at risk of annihilation, as is the case in tribal warfare because of their small numbers, extreme measures are taken.

In this regard, Muhammad was really no different from Moses. It was all tribal religion. The problem is that Muhammad died soon after completing his task. If he had lived for another 10 or 20 years, we might have seen additional revelations more suited a centralized, diverse governing politic. As it was, he died when he did.

Another problem, which I am in the process of asking Gandalf, is the idea that the practices of Muhammad are considered perfect and inalterable, which means it is applicable for all time.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #334 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:22pm freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:14pm: There are several declarations throughout the chapter. That verse 1 is intended to limit the scope of the whole chapter is nothing but irrational and wishful thinking on your part. Can you list the verses which are NOT related to those with whom there is a treaty?
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Karnal

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #335 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:18pm:

Oh I know FD - so terribly irrational to think that the opening sentence of the opening verse could possibly be setting the scope for the entire chapter.

It's not irrational, G, it's just what Muhammed and Islamic scholars want Whitey to believe. You have to learn to read between the lines, as FD has. You have to quote the Quran and what Muslims themselves say to show that it's the opposite of what they say.

When Moh said to fight only in self-defence, for example, he really meant to kill decent white people everywhere. When you say you don't really want to execute gays who do it Mardi Gras style, we know you mean you do. That's why we have to quote you. That's why we have the Wiki.

It's most rational. Just Google: taqiyya.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #336 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:52pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

There are several declarations throughout the chapter. That verse 1 is intended to limit the scope of the whole chapter is nothing but irrational and wishful thinking on your part.

Can you list the verses which are NOT related to those with whom there is a treaty?

Don't trouble yourself FD, I've got this one covered...

Kill the mushriken wherever ye find them

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #337 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 3:09pm End results of 1400 years of islam:
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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 97251	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #338 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:13pm moses wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 3:09pm: End results of 1400 years of islam: http://shoebat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/homs6.jpg End result of Russia's support of Assad? I blame Islam. It is a jolly world, no?
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Karnal

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #339 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

There are several declarations throughout the chapter. That verse 1 is intended to limit the scope of the whole chapter is nothing but irrational and wishful thinking on your part.

Can you list the verses which are NOT related to those with whom there is a treaty?

Don't trouble yourself FD, I've got this one covered...

Kill the mushriken wherever ye find them

How did you know, G?

That's exactly the part of chapter 9 FD's read.

Uncanny.

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #340 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:05pm:

Thanks Gandalf. Now here's a Muslim with nothing to hide.

Oh you need a translation FD? Sorry I keep forgetting someone who clearly is so knowledgable in an arabic text - doesn't actually know any arabic.

No worries...

[Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution. So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

"whoever has assaulted you"
"assault him in the same way"

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

Again, feel free to re-read (or just read) my explanation of the verse, along with explanations of the actual arabic used.

So by fighting Muhammad meant one on one fisticuffs?

Did Malik translate it incorrectly?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Can you explain how this works outside the context of war? Why would Muhammad forbid fighting in the sacred months, then permit it? Are Muslims supposed to pick random fights with people outside the sacred months? Are Muslims supposed to escalate any domestic conflict that occurs outside the sacred months?

Did Asad also get it wrong?

Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: 171 for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.

Also, can you explain why you use verse 2:193 as a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence:

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Then insist that the very next verse means something entirely different when it talks about fighting?

194. The sacred month for the sacred month; and sacrilege calls for retaliation. Whoever commits aggression against you, retaliate against him in the same measure as he has committed against you. And be conscious of God, and know that God is with the righteous.

Also, are any of these preceding verses about war?

190. And fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not commit aggression; God does not love the aggressors.

191. And kill them wherever you overtake them, and expel them from where they had expelled you. Oppression is more serious than murder. But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they fight you there. If they fight you, then kill them. Such is the retribution of the disbelievers.

192. But if they cease, then God is Forgiving and Merciful.

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Also, what are we to make of verse 9:5, which calls for hostile agressive war outside of the sacred months? Does this not point to the restriction on fighting within the sacred months being a reference to war?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.

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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #341 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:07pm

Quote:

Oh I know FD - so terribly irrational to think that the opening sentence of the opening verse could possibly be setting the scope for the entire chapter.

I am not saying it is impossible. I am saying it does not make sense in this context and that it is not actually claiming to restrict the scope. Surely if Muhammad intended to limit the scope of his commands to go out and slaughter, he would havemade it obvious, and would have excluded statements throughout the chapter that broaden the scope. Perhaps you think muhammad was particularly stupid?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:52pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 2:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:14pm:

There are several declarations throughout the chapter. That verse 1 is intended to limit the scope of the whole chapter is nothing but irrational and wishful thinking on your part.

Can you list the verses which are NOT related to those with whom there is a treaty?

Don't trouble yourself FD, I've got this one covered...

Kill the mushriken wherever ye find them

Thanks Gandalf. In addition to verse 5, let's add verse 3:

And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day...

and verse 6:

And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah)...

Boy, that Muhammad sure was an idiot, eh? All those Muslims over the past 1400 years, including Muhammad himself, going out and slaughtering any pagans they could find, all because Muhammad forgot to explain this point.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 97251	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #342 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:16pm Good points, FD. Are you taking questions now?
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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #343 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:26pm

Gandalf, are these verses, also from chapter 2, a reference to warfare or Muslims brawling with each other in the street?

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

216. Fighting is ordained for you, even though you dislike it. But it may be that you dislike something while it is good for you, and it may be that you like something while it is bad for you. God knows, and you do not know.

217. They ask you about fighting during the Holy Month. Say, “Fighting during it is deplorable; but to bar others from God’s path, and to disbelieve in Him, and to prevent access to the Holy Mosque, and to expel its people from it, are more deplorable with God. And persecution is more serious than killing. They will not cease to fight you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can. Whoever among you turns back from his religion, and dies a disbeliever—those are they whose works will come to nothing, in this life, and in the Hereafter. Those are the inmates of the Fire, abiding in it forever.

244. Fight in the cause of God, and know that God is Hearing and Knowing.

245. Who is he who will offer God a generous loan, so He will multiply it for him manifold? God receives and amplifies, and to Him you will be returned.

246. Have you not considered the notables of the Children of Israel after Moses? When they said to a prophet of theirs, “Appoint a king for us, and we will fight in the cause of God.” He said, “Is it possible that, if fighting was ordained for you, you would not fight?” They said, “Why would we not fight in the cause of God, when we were driven out of our homes, along with our children?” But when fighting was ordained for them, they turned away, except for a few of them. But God is aware of the wrongdoers.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 97251	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #344 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:32pm Karnal wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:16pm: Good points, FD. Are you taking questions now? FD, you didn't answer again. What does this mean? Quote: This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
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