Australian Politics Forum - trees rocks talk donkeys fly

Karnal

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #360 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Did Malik translate it incorrectly?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force

note the singular 'anyone' The word translated here is 'اعتدي' - which is conjugated in the singular form. So it literally says "a (single) person attacks" (singular). If it was plural it would be written with the plural conjugation 'اعتديوا'. Moreover, Malik's translates "retaliate with the same force" - from the arabic 'فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ ' - which literally translated as "then attack (retaliate) upon him like he attacked upon you" - noting that both singulars "him" (the pronoun 'ه' after 'علي) and "he" (the third person singular conjugation of the verb اعْتَدَىٰ) - are expressed explicitly.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Also, can you explain why you use verse 2:193 as a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence:

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Then insist that the very next verse means something entirely different when it talks about fighting?

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare. Though it is clearly in specific reference to 'one on one' assaults - it makes no sense to insist there must be different rules for warfare. As for the proportionality issue, its pretty obvious where you are going with this - that Muhammad was so sinister he was at pains to make it clear that proportionality mustn't be seen as a general rule by specifying only one circumstance in which it should be used. Thereby implying that outside of that circumstance it can (and should) be carte blanche. Where this meme falls down of course is the fact that warfare is clearly and unambiguously specified as self defence only - several times, and that muslims must stop fighting if a) attacks against them cease or b) the enemy inclines towards peace.

Do you think we're discussing the sort of ethics that encompass both personal and collective struggles?

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #361 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:01pm Gandalf, you're mistake was trying to establish a 'proportionality' doctrine to war. You should've just said that proportionality has nothing to do with. It's war; hardly anything is proportional.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49730 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #362 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:09pm He should have also left out the self defence bit. Read your Quran Gandalf. Fighting is prescribed for you. Of course, not during the holy months. Then it's all about self defence and proportionality - according to the Quran.
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Auggie

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #363 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:09pm:

He should have also left out the self defence bit. Read your Quran Gandalf. Fighting is prescribed for you.

Of course, not during the holy months. Then it's all about self defence and proportionality - according to the Quran.

No, it has never been about self-defence and proportionality. It was pre-emptive warfare. He engaged in offensive warfare in order to protect his community.

The sacred months are treaty months with the polytheists.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #364 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:31pm freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:09pm: Fighting is prescribed for you. Ironic, that its from the same chapter that produced... But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.
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Karnal

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #365 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:36pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:00pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Did Malik translate it incorrectly?

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/2/194/retaliation-in-the-sacred-months

The Sacred month, in which fighting is prohibited, is to be respected if the same is respected by the enemy: sacred things too are subject to retaliation. Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force. Fear Allah, and bear in mind that Allah is with the righteous.

Therefore, if anyone transgresses a prohibition and attacks you, retaliate with the same force

note the singular 'anyone' The word translated here is 'اعتدي' - which is conjugated in the singular form. So it literally says "a (single) person attacks" (singular). If it was plural it would be written with the plural conjugation 'اعتديوا'. Moreover, Malik's translates "retaliate with the same force" - from the arabic 'فَاعْتَدُوا عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَىٰ عَلَيْكُمْ ' - which literally translated as "then attack (retaliate) upon him like he attacked upon you" - noting that both singulars "him" (the pronoun 'ه' after 'علي) and "he" (the third person singular conjugation of the verb اعْتَدَىٰ) - are expressed explicitly.

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 7:36pm:

Also, can you explain why you use verse 2:193 as a reference to a just war doctrine of self defence:

http://www.clearquran.com/002.html

193. And fight them until there is no oppression, and worship becomes devoted to God alone. But if they cease, then let there be no hostility except against the oppressors.

Then insist that the very next verse means something entirely different when it talks about fighting?

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare. Though it is clearly in specific reference to 'one on one' assaults - it makes no sense to insist there must be different rules for warfare. As for the proportionality issue, its pretty obvious where you are going with this - that Muhammad was so sinister he was at pains to make it clear that proportionality mustn't be seen as a general rule by specifying only one circumstance in which it should be used. Thereby implying that outside of that circumstance it can (and should) be carte blanche. Where this meme falls down of course is the fact that warfare is clearly and unambiguously specified as self defence only - several times, and that muslims must stop fighting if a) attacks against them cease or b) the enemy inclines towards peace.

Do you think we're discussing the sort of ethics that encompass both personal and collective struggles?

G?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97233	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #366 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:37pm freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:09pm: He should have also left out the self defence bit. Read your Quran Gandalf. Fighting is prescribed for you. Of course, not during the holy months. Then it's all about self defence and proportionality - according to the Quran. FD?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49730 At my desk.	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #367 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:38pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:31pm: freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:09pm: Fighting is prescribed for you. Ironic, that its from the same chapter that produced... But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors. Cease what Gandalf? Being non-Muslims?
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freediver

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #368 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:54pm:

Quote:

I stated from the beginning I believe 2:194 is applicable to both civil law for assault, as well as warfare.

Do you agree that 2:194 establishes a just war doctrine of self defence and proportionality during the holy months?

What is the purpose of applying the same standards to civil disputes during the holy months?

Also, is this really your way of conceding 2:194 does cover warfare? Were you trying to misrepresent your own opinion here?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

"whoever has assaulted you"
"assault him in the same way"

Does that sound like language describing defending yourself against an army, or declaring your legal rights in civil matters?

Gandalf?

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Karnal

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Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly
Reply #369 - Jan 17^th, 2018 at 10:03pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 8:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 16^th, 2018 at 12:41pm:

Muhamamd does not limit warfare in general to the standard of self defence or proportional response. But he does know how to talk about the concepts of self defence and proportionality, plainly and clearly, and he does so in the Quran. Just not in any of the verses Gandalf has been citing. Because to quote them would leave no doubt as to the absurdity of Gandalf's lies.

FD? You're not answering again.

FD?

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kemal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 574 Gender:	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #370 - Jan 29^th, 2018 at 7:36pm freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:38pm: Gandalf? Must be celebrating Christmas late this year.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97233	Re: trees rocks talk donkeys fly Reply #371 - Jan 30^th, 2018 at 5:00am kemal wrote on Jan 29^th, 2018 at 7:36pm: freediver wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 9:38pm: Gandalf? Must be celebrating Christmas late this year. Kemal?
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