Australian Politics Forum - The Islamic Way

freediver

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #60 - Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:10pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 8:32pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 12:10pm:

Quote:

I think the point you're trying to make here is that Muhammad is a so-called Prophet and should have standards higher than the average person.

Sure. We should not have to explain to religious leaders that genocide is a bad thing. The 'average person' is a low bar to set, yet even there Muhamamd comes up short.

Of course. That goes without saying.

Quote:

If we were talking about him as a historical character in much the same way as we talk about Napoleon or Julius Caesar, then nobody would care. It's because he's the leader of a religion that brings him under so much scrutiny.

Sure. Hitler gets scrutiny because we still have Nazis sprouting his nonsense. We have 1.5 billion Muslims sprouting Muhamnamd's nonsense. Western civilisation was nearly completely destroyed because of Muhammad. Genghis gets little attention, despite the scale of what he did, because no-one is defending him. Civilisation recovered from Ghenghis in a way it did not from Muhammad, because Ghenghis did not impose his barbarity via a religion.

I never said that no person or idea is above scrutiny. What I’m saying is that Islam was founded in a tribal society as was Judaism. In fact, I’d say that Arabia was more tribal than Judea.

Quote:

Can you provide a comparable example within a tribal society where genocide wasn't the end game?

Sure. Pre-Muhamamd Arabia. Is someone telling you that these tribes intended to wipe each other out, and just needed Muhammad's help to get it done? Or, stick your finger on a map, and pick a random year in history.

Quote:

The treaty was

What treaty? You have been talking about it for several posts now, and I am still waiting on an answer.

Quote:

Can you provide evidence that Muhammad unilaterally broke treaties??

I can give you common sense. The Jews would not have signed up to such a one sided treaty that allowed Muhammad to threaten them with massacre if they do not convert to Islam. By any reasonable standard that is a declaration of war by Muhammad- the end of a treaty. Remember, they were the third of three large tribes to fall victim to this non-existent treaty. Obviously it is hard for me to prove anything regarding a treaty that does not actually exist. It is another lie Muslims like to tell, like Gandalf's invention of a mindless collective.

Quote:

My point is that you're quite willing to gloss over the actions of Moses and his massacres, but pay special attention and scrutiny to Muhammad's actions when on the grand scale of things, they amount to pretty much the same. Moses was a warmongering tribal leader who order the slaughter of thousands, women and children alike.

There is nothing in the Jewish literature, or any other religious text I am aware of, that comes close to chapter 9 of the Koran in terms of promoting violence.

Look, I take your point. Muhammad is not what I would expect from a Prophet of God. Maybe he was evil. The point is that he has 1 billion adherents. We’re stuck with Islam, whether we like it or not. People are very sensitive about religion; if we have to engage in historical revisionism about a man who lived 1400 years in order to live harmoniously with them, then I don’t think it’s a huge price to pay.

I totally get what you’re doing and you’re right for the most part about Islam and Muhammad. It’s also true that you’re efforts won’t reap anything.

Why not?

Can you imagine trying to convince 1.8 billion Muslims that they’ve been lied all their life and that their religion is based on a warmongering, sadistic, sexual predator?

Good luck with that.

So falling short of that is not reaping anything?

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Auggie

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #61 - Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:11pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:10pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:05pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 8:32pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 12:10pm:

Quote:

I think the point you're trying to make here is that Muhammad is a so-called Prophet and should have standards higher than the average person.

Sure. We should not have to explain to religious leaders that genocide is a bad thing. The 'average person' is a low bar to set, yet even there Muhamamd comes up short.

Of course. That goes without saying.

Quote:

If we were talking about him as a historical character in much the same way as we talk about Napoleon or Julius Caesar, then nobody would care. It's because he's the leader of a religion that brings him under so much scrutiny.

Sure. Hitler gets scrutiny because we still have Nazis sprouting his nonsense. We have 1.5 billion Muslims sprouting Muhamnamd's nonsense. Western civilisation was nearly completely destroyed because of Muhammad. Genghis gets little attention, despite the scale of what he did, because no-one is defending him. Civilisation recovered from Ghenghis in a way it did not from Muhammad, because Ghenghis did not impose his barbarity via a religion.

I never said that no person or idea is above scrutiny. What I’m saying is that Islam was founded in a tribal society as was Judaism. In fact, I’d say that Arabia was more tribal than Judea.

Quote:

Can you provide a comparable example within a tribal society where genocide wasn't the end game?

Sure. Pre-Muhamamd Arabia. Is someone telling you that these tribes intended to wipe each other out, and just needed Muhammad's help to get it done? Or, stick your finger on a map, and pick a random year in history.

Quote:

The treaty was

What treaty? You have been talking about it for several posts now, and I am still waiting on an answer.

Quote:

Can you provide evidence that Muhammad unilaterally broke treaties??

I can give you common sense. The Jews would not have signed up to such a one sided treaty that allowed Muhammad to threaten them with massacre if they do not convert to Islam. By any reasonable standard that is a declaration of war by Muhammad- the end of a treaty. Remember, they were the third of three large tribes to fall victim to this non-existent treaty. Obviously it is hard for me to prove anything regarding a treaty that does not actually exist. It is another lie Muslims like to tell, like Gandalf's invention of a mindless collective.

Quote:

My point is that you're quite willing to gloss over the actions of Moses and his massacres, but pay special attention and scrutiny to Muhammad's actions when on the grand scale of things, they amount to pretty much the same. Moses was a warmongering tribal leader who order the slaughter of thousands, women and children alike.

There is nothing in the Jewish literature, or any other religious text I am aware of, that comes close to chapter 9 of the Koran in terms of promoting violence.

Look, I take your point. Muhammad is not what I would expect from a Prophet of God. Maybe he was evil. The point is that he has 1 billion adherents. We’re stuck with Islam, whether we like it or not. People are very sensitive about religion; if we have to engage in historical revisionism about a man who lived 1400 years in order to live harmoniously with them, then I don’t think it’s a huge price to pay.

I totally get what you’re doing and you’re right for the most part about Islam and Muhammad. It’s also true that you’re efforts won’t reap anything.

Why not?

Can you imagine trying to convince 1.8 billion Muslims that they’ve been lied all their life and that their religion is based on a warmongering, sadistic, sexual predator?

Good luck with that.

So falling short of that is not reaping anything?

So, what, you want to convert a handful of Muslims away from Islam?

Ok, great. Clap, clap.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49445 At my desk.	Re: The Islamic Way Reply #62 - Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:13pm And what are you here for?
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Auggie

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #63 - Jan 25^th, 2018 at 10:26pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 9:13pm:

And what are you here for?

I’m here to learn and debate.

My advice to is, to give up trying to convince Gandalf about how evil Islam is. You’ll never convince him no matter what.

Second, join the Australian Liberty Alliance - they support a ten-year moratorium on resident visas from OIC countries. Put your activism to good use.

Btw, is Gandalf a convert or was he born a Muslim?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49445 At my desk.	Re: The Islamic Way Reply #64 - Jan 26^th, 2018 at 8:05am That's a very simplistic view. I tend to take Kuhn's perspective on changing views - the big changes ultimately rely on death. You can change the whole world's opinion without changing anyone's mind.
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Auggie

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #65 - Jan 26^th, 2018 at 11:05am

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 8:05am:

That's a very simplistic view. I tend to take Kuhn's perspective on changing views - the big changes ultimately rely on death. You can change the whole world's opinion without changing anyone's mind.

Well, that's very interesting. Of course, provided that the majority of the world are not the ones whose minds you are trying to change.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49445 At my desk.	Re: The Islamic Way Reply #66 - Jan 26^th, 2018 at 1:28pm It's a very interesting book. You should read it.
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freediver

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #67 - Jan 27^th, 2018 at 12:29pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:03am:

Kill those who don't believe in the Muzlim god. Just like Mombai and so many other places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42766623

You know the 'Muslim' God is the same God as the Jewish and Christian God???

That's what Muhammad said, just before he slaughtered them

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

You don't believe in self-defence??

Auggie wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 9:50pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qu
rayza

Letting those people live would've been seen as weak, and so Muhammad ordered them to be killed. If Muhammad had let them live, what's not to say that they would've attacked the Muslims at another time???

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims; they promised not to support the enemy of Muhammad but did anyway.

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other. A treaty might've lasted for a few months, but only to ensure that the opposing army would rebuild. It was about revenge, and tribal honour. Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Also, there are countless examples in the Torah of whether Yahweh orders his followers to indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children just because of a historical grudge against the Jews. But, for some reason you seem to accept this but not a situation in which Muhammad had a reason to perform the acts he did.

Augie you never explained where you got all this from.

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Karnal

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #68 - Jan 27^th, 2018 at 2:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 8:32pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:25pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 12:10pm:

Quote:

I think the point you're trying to make here is that Muhammad is a so-called Prophet and should have standards higher than the average person.

Sure. We should not have to explain to religious leaders that genocide is a bad thing. The 'average person' is a low bar to set, yet even there Muhamamd comes up short.

Of course. That goes without saying.

Quote:

If we were talking about him as a historical character in much the same way as we talk about Napoleon or Julius Caesar, then nobody would care. It's because he's the leader of a religion that brings him under so much scrutiny.

Sure. Hitler gets scrutiny because we still have Nazis sprouting his nonsense. We have 1.5 billion Muslims sprouting Muhamnamd's nonsense. Western civilisation was nearly completely destroyed because of Muhammad. Genghis gets little attention, despite the scale of what he did, because no-one is defending him. Civilisation recovered from Ghenghis in a way it did not from Muhammad, because Ghenghis did not impose his barbarity via a religion.

I never said that no person or idea is above scrutiny. What I’m saying is that Islam was founded in a tribal society as was Judaism. In fact, I’d say that Arabia was more tribal than Judea.

Quote:

Can you provide a comparable example within a tribal society where genocide wasn't the end game?

Sure. Pre-Muhamamd Arabia. Is someone telling you that these tribes intended to wipe each other out, and just needed Muhammad's help to get it done? Or, stick your finger on a map, and pick a random year in history.

Quote:

The treaty was

What treaty? You have been talking about it for several posts now, and I am still waiting on an answer.

Quote:

Can you provide evidence that Muhammad unilaterally broke treaties??

I can give you common sense. The Jews would not have signed up to such a one sided treaty that allowed Muhammad to threaten them with massacre if they do not convert to Islam. By any reasonable standard that is a declaration of war by Muhammad- the end of a treaty. Remember, they were the third of three large tribes to fall victim to this non-existent treaty. Obviously it is hard for me to prove anything regarding a treaty that does not actually exist. It is another lie Muslims like to tell, like Gandalf's invention of a mindless collective.

Quote:

My point is that you're quite willing to gloss over the actions of Moses and his massacres, but pay special attention and scrutiny to Muhammad's actions when on the grand scale of things, they amount to pretty much the same. Moses was a warmongering tribal leader who order the slaughter of thousands, women and children alike.

There is nothing in the Jewish literature, or any other religious text I am aware of, that comes close to chapter 9 of the Koran in terms of promoting violence.

Look, I take your point. Muhammad is not what I would expect from a Prophet of God. Maybe he was evil. The point is that he has 1 billion adherents. We’re stuck with Islam, whether we like it or not. People are very sensitive about religion; if we have to engage in historical revisionism about a man who lived 1400 years in order to live harmoniously with them, then I don’t think it’s a huge price to pay.

I totally get what you’re doing and you’re right for the most part about Islam and Muhammad. It’s also true that you’re efforts won’t reap anything.

Why not?

Because they're tinted.

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Auggie

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Posts: 8571

Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #69 - Jan 27^th, 2018 at 6:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 12:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:03am:

Kill those who don't believe in the Muzlim god. Just like Mombai and so many other places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42766623

You know the 'Muslim' God is the same God as the Jewish and Christian God???

That's what Muhammad said, just before he slaughtered them

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

You don't believe in self-defence??

Auggie wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 9:50pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qu
rayza

Letting those people live would've been seen as weak, and so Muhammad ordered them to be killed. If Muhammad had let them live, what's not to say that they would've attacked the Muslims at another time???

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims; they promised not to support the enemy of Muhammad but did anyway.

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other. A treaty might've lasted for a few months, but only to ensure that the opposing army would rebuild. It was about revenge, and tribal honour. Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Also, there are countless examples in the Torah of whether Yahweh orders his followers to indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children just because of a historical grudge against the Jews. But, for some reason you seem to accept this but not a situation in which Muhammad had a reason to perform the acts he did.

Augie you never explained where you got all this from.

It is my opinion.

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Karnal

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Australian Politics

Posts: 96630

Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #70 - Jan 27^th, 2018 at 6:43pm

Auggie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 6:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 12:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:03am:

Kill those who don't believe in the Muzlim god. Just like Mombai and so many other places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42766623

You know the 'Muslim' God is the same God as the Jewish and Christian God???

That's what Muhammad said, just before he slaughtered them

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

You don't believe in self-defence??

Auggie wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 9:50pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qu
rayza

Letting those people live would've been seen as weak, and so Muhammad ordered them to be killed. If Muhammad had let them live, what's not to say that they would've attacked the Muslims at another time???

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims; they promised not to support the enemy of Muhammad but did anyway.

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other. A treaty might've lasted for a few months, but only to ensure that the opposing army would rebuild. It was about revenge, and tribal honour. Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Also, there are countless examples in the Torah of whether Yahweh orders his followers to indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children just because of a historical grudge against the Jews. But, for some reason you seem to accept this but not a situation in which Muhammad had a reason to perform the acts he did.

Augie you never explained where you got all this from.

It is my opinion.

You're not supposed to express one of those, Augie.

Google: taqiyya.

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freediver

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #71 - Jan 28^th, 2018 at 7:13am

Auggie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 6:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 12:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:03am:

Kill those who don't believe in the Muzlim god. Just like Mombai and so many other places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42766623

You know the 'Muslim' God is the same God as the Jewish and Christian God???

That's what Muhammad said, just before he slaughtered them

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

You don't believe in self-defence??

Auggie wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 9:50pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qu
rayza

Letting those people live would've been seen as weak, and so Muhammad ordered them to be killed. If Muhammad had let them live, what's not to say that they would've attacked the Muslims at another time???

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims; they promised not to support the enemy of Muhammad but did anyway.

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other. A treaty might've lasted for a few months, but only to ensure that the opposing army would rebuild. It was about revenge, and tribal honour. Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Also, there are countless examples in the Torah of whether Yahweh orders his followers to indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children just because of a historical grudge against the Jews. But, for some reason you seem to accept this but not a situation in which Muhammad had a reason to perform the acts he did.

Augie you never explained where you got all this from.

It is my opinion.

Are you saying you just happened to make up the same lies as Gandalf, Abu etc? Does your opinion have any basis in fact?

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Auggie

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Posts: 8571

Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #72 - Jan 28^th, 2018 at 3:21pm

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2018 at 7:13am:

Auggie wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 6:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 12:29pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 1:24pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 12:22pm:

Auggie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 10:22am:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2018 at 6:03am:

Kill those who don't believe in the Muzlim god. Just like Mombai and so many other places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42766623

You know the 'Muslim' God is the same God as the Jewish and Christian God???

That's what Muhammad said, just before he slaughtered them

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

You don't believe in self-defence??

Auggie wrote on Jan 24^th, 2018 at 10:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 9:50pm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza#Demise_of_the_Banu_Qu
rayza

Letting those people live would've been seen as weak, and so Muhammad ordered them to be killed. If Muhammad had let them live, what's not to say that they would've attacked the Muslims at another time???

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims; they promised not to support the enemy of Muhammad but did anyway.

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other. A treaty might've lasted for a few months, but only to ensure that the opposing army would rebuild. It was about revenge, and tribal honour. Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Also, there are countless examples in the Torah of whether Yahweh orders his followers to indiscriminately slaughter men, women and children just because of a historical grudge against the Jews. But, for some reason you seem to accept this but not a situation in which Muhammad had a reason to perform the acts he did.

Augie you never explained where you got all this from.

It is my opinion.

Are you saying you just happened to make up the same lies as Gandalf, Abu etc? Does your opinion have any basis in fact?

Now, now, no need to speak like a jellyfish.

It is not based on fact. It is an opinion.

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freediver

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Re: The Islamic Way
Reply #73 - Jan 28^th, 2018 at 7:27pm

So these are "mere opinions"?

Only those who fought and killed the Muslims, FD.

Also, the Jews broke a Treaty with the Muslims

they promised not to support the enemy

You need to understand is that everyone was out to get each other.

Muhammad did not worse than what any other tribal leader did at the time.

Where did you get these "opinions" from? Did you make them up yourself? Or does your imam give you pamphlets full of "opinions" to throw at anyone who criticises Muhammad?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96630	Re: The Islamic Way Reply #74 - Jan 28^th, 2018 at 9:29pm Doesn't sound like FD's too fond of your opinion, Augie. Should we ask FD for his?
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