Australian Politics Forum - Correct version of Australia’s history

Brian Ross

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #165 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:09pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 6:59pm:

People like you piss on Australian white history when the pioneers died like flies carving out of a life for themselves. It was a fight for survival and pure nature. Don't bring some 21st century leftist morality into the realities of existence. It's just dividing our country up. People feel enough guilt as it is. We don't need it.

You have evidence to back this assertion, Hammer? Or are you merely hitting out because you don't like the message? I have never "pissed on" any history based on factual evidence. White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush - that is a fact. Indigenous Australians often helped them to survive. They showed them where water was, what bush foods to eat, how to marshal their stock, how to look after themselves. You appear to have problems with accepting that truth. Why? Does it hurt? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Gnads

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #166 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:12pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 2:57pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:34pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:30pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 6:11pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:

Australians have long held the idea that all Indigenous Australians were simple nomadic hunter-gatherers. It enabled them to more easily dispossess them of the land and take it for themselves. Appears that myth has been destroyed at last - Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past.

This is the wrong attitude to take, Brian. Rewriting history or re-interpreting it to make us feel better is not the way forward. We need to acknowledge facts and truths whilst recognising at the same time what we did wrong in the past.

I personally don't see any conflict between believing that the Indigenous Peoples were not a complex civilisation AND believing that we should also treat them with compassion and respect AND that they were no inferior.

You can accuse me of double-think if you wish.

I am not suggesting the rewriting or reinterpretation of anything, Auggie. I am suggesting that the colonial view of all Indigenous Australians as being nomadic hunter-gatherers is incorrect - according to the colonists' own records. Some were nomadic, some weren't. Simples, really. The records are there. They have basically been ignored. Surely we should take note of what was written? Afterall they were the first hand observers, weren't they?

The point is that some Indigenous Australians were more sophisticated than many Australians have been taught.

Still the least developed human societies.

Also the longest lasting culture the world has known, one which invented sophisticated means of living using a stick, Gordon. Plonk a white person down in the middle of Woop-Woop and they'd survive how long? Plonk an Indigenous person down there and they'd still be alive happily when you came to collect them again. White colonists were lucky the Indigenous Australians took pity on them, otherwise they'd have died of thirst or starved to death when they first arrived. Roll Eyes

You really are deluded Brian .... the majority of Aboriginals today would perish just like Whitey ... why because they haven't been raised in Woop- Woop or taught how to survive of the land with bush tucker.

Only those in remote communities can do that .... & mostly they do that with whiteys tools today.

They are a small number of the whole population who identify as Aboriginals.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Gnads

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #167 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:18pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:02pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:

Australians have long held the idea that all Indigenous Australians were simple nomadic hunter-gatherers. It enabled them to more easily dispossess them of the land and take it for themselves. Appears that myth has been destroyed at last - Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past.

Not by Grahame Abrahams & Bruce Pascoe.

That's all it is a fairytale thought bubble.

Wondered how long it would be before you made an entrance ......

I forgot you used to teach in that Aboriginal University in a Western Australian City 5,000 years ago. Roll Eyes

I wasn't alive 5,000 years ago. Tsk, tsk, such a silly statement but hey, we have come to expect them from you. Roll Eyes

It was sarcasm Brian ... you may not have taught there but you believe it existed.

There in lies your problem.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #168 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:19pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:09pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 6:59pm:

People like you piss on Australian white history when the pioneers died like flies carving out of a life for themselves. It was a fight for survival and pure nature. Don't bring some 21st century leftist morality into the realities of existence. It's just dividing our country up. People feel enough guilt as it is. We don't need it.

You have evidence to back this assertion, Hammer? Or are you merely hitting out because you don't like the message? I have never "pissed on" any history based on factual evidence. White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush - that is a fact. Indigenous Australians often helped them to survive. They showed them where water was, what bush foods to eat, how to marshal their stock, how to look after themselves. You appear to have problems with accepting that truth. Why? Does it hurt? Roll Eyes

White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush

And yet here we are. They evolved as time went on Brian. Aborigines weren't the reason white Australians prospered Brian. That's rubbish. They prospered because they used modern technology.

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Gnads

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #169 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:20pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:09pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 6:59pm:

People like you piss on Australian white history when the pioneers died like flies carving out of a life for themselves. It was a fight for survival and pure nature. Don't bring some 21st century leftist morality into the realities of existence. It's just dividing our country up. People feel enough guilt as it is. We don't need it.

You have evidence to back this assertion, Hammer? Or are you merely hitting out because you don't like the message? I have never "pissed on" any history based on factual evidence. White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush - that is a fact. Indigenous Australians often helped them to survive. They showed them where water was, what bush foods to eat, how to marshal their stock, how to look after themselves. You appear to have problems with accepting that truth. Why? Does it hurt? Roll Eyes

Please explain that one?

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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UnSubRocky

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #170 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 10:38pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 2:57pm:

Also the longest lasting culture the world has known, one which invented sophisticated means of living using a stick, Gordon. Plonk a white person down in the middle of Woop-Woop and they'd survive how long? Plonk an Indigenous person down there and they'd still be alive happily when you came to collect them again. White colonists were lucky the Indigenous Australians took pity on them, otherwise they'd have died of thirst or starved to death when they first arrived. Roll Eyes

Highlighted, I would considered that contentious. The conditions of the first fleeters coming off the boats at Sydney Cove was quite poor. Three years into their settlement, the settlers were in such a poor state that they would have starved to death, had it not been for resupplies after a request was made to get a ship to go get more food. The aborigines could have wiped out 1000 Europeans with not too much effort, and we would probably see nothing more than some evidence of the first fleeters landing, when the second fleet arrived.

It was not a matter of aborigines taking pity on the new arrivals. I would surmise that it could be a matter of the aborigines not finding it worthwhile to fight with the newcomers, and risk losing a few tribepeople in some conflict. Perhaps the aborigines were more curious with how the newcomers were going to proceed before making any real fight.

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At this stage...

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UnSubRocky

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #171 - Jul 12^th, 2018 at 10:50pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 3:00pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:39pm:

I've listened to a few dream time stories. I don't recall mention of wells, farms, dams etc. History isn't something that's determined by what 'feels good'.

White words for white things, Hammer. Indigenous Australians used black words for the same things. Such a colonist mindset you have. Completely unable to accept the reality that Colonists described. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

If someone was listening to stories in English or some aboriginal dialect, and understood one version and/or the other, it would be quite reasonable to assume that they know what an aboriginal word for "wells, farms, dams, etc" would be translated into English. You can't say that there is not an English translation for the same thing described in an aboriginal dialect.

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At this stage...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #172 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 8:46am

.. and so the Second Little Piggy built his house of sticks, but the big bad wolf arrived in a British ship and blewwwwwww the whole thing down and ate up the little piggy inside.....

So the Third Little Piggy built HIS house of stoned talk and bullshit bricks.. and the big bad wolf came along with his Captain Cook laws and he huffed and he puffed... but he could not get Ayers Rock back from that Third Little Piggy....

Wait a minute................... is that a Whartey Proof Fence yo' got dere, bro... 'round OUR Uluru.. what dem Wharte fellas call Ayers Rock?? Yo' godda smok?

"Indigenous Australians used black words for the same things. Such a colonist mindset you have."

So Black Fullahs using Black Words is not colonist.... in the same vein.. but somehow a finer approach? All they need is an interpreter, bro....

"Say, Jackie-Jackie... waddya call that big rock?"

"We call dat fullah Uluru, baasss!"

"Ayers Rock rolls off the tongue better..."

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« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:36pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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freediver

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #173 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:32pm

Auggie wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 6:08pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 5:11pm:

According to Brian's article, the aborigines "farmed" the land by burning the grass and hunting the roos that later came to eat the fresh growth. If we set the bar that low, then I am farming fish every time I burley up.

Any idea what Pascoe means when he talks about sheds and houses?

Auggie wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:53pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:43pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:41pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:28pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 8:15pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 10^th, 2018 at 6:39pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 9^th, 2018 at 10:17pm:

Quote:

This does not mean however that they were backward. The indigenous peoples were able to live in the same way for more than 40 thousand years continuously. This is an achievement itself

And you accuse Pascoe of embellishing.

Do you equate complexity with superiority?

That's usually how things work out. Not even the aborigines are volunteering to live like their ancestors.

So, is the White Man superior to the Indigenous Man, genetically?

I understand we have a higher tolerance for alcohol.

Is this your attempt to evade answers to questions, so that I can't quote you as being a racist?

No.

So, answer the question: yes or no?

In what way was my previous answer unclear?

You didn't answer yes or no. You made up some whimsical example about how we 'can tolerate wine better'. That's an insufficient answer.

If you had a choice between genetic tolerance or intolerance of alcohol, which would you choose? Or would you ask me which is better?

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:30pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 6:11pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:

Australians have long held the idea that all Indigenous Australians were simple nomadic hunter-gatherers. It enabled them to more easily dispossess them of the land and take it for themselves. Appears that myth has been destroyed at last - Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past.

This is the wrong attitude to take, Brian. Rewriting history or re-interpreting it to make us feel better is not the way forward. We need to acknowledge facts and truths whilst recognising at the same time what we did wrong in the past.

I personally don't see any conflict between believing that the Indigenous Peoples were not a complex civilisation AND believing that we should also treat them with compassion and respect AND that they were no inferior.

You can accuse me of double-think if you wish.

I am not suggesting the rewriting or reinterpretation of anything, Auggie. I am suggesting that the colonial view of all Indigenous Australians as being nomadic hunter-gatherers is incorrect - according to the colonists' own records. Some were nomadic, some weren't. Simples, really. The records are there. They have basically been ignored. Surely we should take note of what was written? Afterall they were the first hand observers, weren't they?

The point is that some Indigenous Australians were more sophisticated than many Australians have been taught.

Brian can you tell us what Pascoe means when he talks about sheds and houses?

Can you explain why burning grass to help hunt roos is a form of farming?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #174 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:40pm

[quote author=freediver link=1531131702/173#173 date=1531708369

Brian can you tell us what Pascoe means when he talks about sheds and houses?

Can you explain why burning grass to help hunt roos is a form of farming? [/quote]

One drawing by a settler showed some small dwellings made of assembled bits of stick and log and root timber... the second little piggy.... looked just big enough to get in and sleep in.... hardly a shed or house.....

I also read a line that said that somewhere in WA some 'settler' came upon a section of yams growing - acres of them - didn't say they were planted and cultivated .. just that there were plenty there.... and not a native in sight from that record....

Big leap to saying there was house building and cultivation on a large scale...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Brian Ross

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #175 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:42pm

Gnads wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 2:57pm:

Gordon wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:34pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 9:30pm:

Auggie wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 6:11pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:

Australians have long held the idea that all Indigenous Australians were simple nomadic hunter-gatherers. It enabled them to more easily dispossess them of the land and take it for themselves. Appears that myth has been destroyed at last - Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past.

This is the wrong attitude to take, Brian. Rewriting history or re-interpreting it to make us feel better is not the way forward. We need to acknowledge facts and truths whilst recognising at the same time what we did wrong in the past.

I personally don't see any conflict between believing that the Indigenous Peoples were not a complex civilisation AND believing that we should also treat them with compassion and respect AND that they were no inferior.

You can accuse me of double-think if you wish.

I am not suggesting the rewriting or reinterpretation of anything, Auggie. I am suggesting that the colonial view of all Indigenous Australians as being nomadic hunter-gatherers is incorrect - according to the colonists' own records. Some were nomadic, some weren't. Simples, really. The records are there. They have basically been ignored. Surely we should take note of what was written? Afterall they were the first hand observers, weren't they?

The point is that some Indigenous Australians were more sophisticated than many Australians have been taught.

Still the least developed human societies.

Also the longest lasting culture the world has known, one which invented sophisticated means of living using a stick, Gordon. Plonk a white person down in the middle of Woop-Woop and they'd survive how long? Plonk an Indigenous person down there and they'd still be alive happily when you came to collect them again. White colonists were lucky the Indigenous Australians took pity on them, otherwise they'd have died of thirst or starved to death when they first arrived. Roll Eyes

You really are deluded Brian .... the majority of Aboriginals today would perish just like Whitey ... why because they haven't been raised in Woop- Woop or taught how to survive of the land with bush tucker.

Only those in remote communities can do that .... & mostly they do that with whiteys tools today.

They are a small number of the whole population who identify as Aboriginals.

Did I claim otherwise? Most inidgenous kids get exposed to bush tucker and how to survive in the bush. Most white kids spend all their time in front of a computer screen. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48833 At my desk.	Re: Correct version of Australia’s history Reply #176 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:42pm Maybe the big one was the house and the little one was the carport.
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Brian Ross

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #177 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:43pm

Gnads wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:18pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:02pm:

Gnads wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:01pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2018 at 4:55pm:

Australians have long held the idea that all Indigenous Australians were simple nomadic hunter-gatherers. It enabled them to more easily dispossess them of the land and take it for themselves. Appears that myth has been destroyed at last - Rethinking Indigenous Australia's agricultural past.

Not by Grahame Abrahams & Bruce Pascoe.

That's all it is a fairytale thought bubble.

Wondered how long it would be before you made an entrance ......

I forgot you used to teach in that Aboriginal University in a Western Australian City 5,000 years ago. Roll Eyes

I wasn't alive 5,000 years ago. Tsk, tsk, such a silly statement but hey, we have come to expect them from you. Roll Eyes

It was sarcasm Brian ... you may not have taught there but you believe it existed.

There in lies your problem.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Describes where you come from, rather well. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #178 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:47pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 7:09pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 12^th, 2018 at 6:59pm:

People like you piss on Australian white history when the pioneers died like flies carving out of a life for themselves. It was a fight for survival and pure nature. Don't bring some 21st century leftist morality into the realities of existence. It's just dividing our country up. People feel enough guilt as it is. We don't need it.

You have evidence to back this assertion, Hammer? Or are you merely hitting out because you don't like the message? I have never "pissed on" any history based on factual evidence. White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush - that is a fact. Indigenous Australians often helped them to survive. They showed them where water was, what bush foods to eat, how to marshal their stock, how to look after themselves. You appear to have problems with accepting that truth. Why? Does it hurt? Roll Eyes

White Colonists were ill equipped to survive in the Australian Bush

And yet here we are. They evolved as time went on Brian. Aborigines weren't the reason white Australians prospered Brian. That's rubbish. They prospered because they used modern technology.

The technology they had, had evolved for live in European conditions. It was ill suited to Australia. Without Indigenous Australians' help, the white settlers would have often starved to death or died of thirst, Hammer. Credit where credit is due. Indigenous Australians saved white Colonists. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Gnads

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Re: Correct version of Australia’s history
Reply #179 - Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:47pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 16^th, 2018 at 12:40pm:

[quote author=freediver link=1531131702/173#173 date=1531708369

Brian can you tell us what Pascoe means when he talks about sheds and houses?

Can you explain why burning grass to help hunt roos is a form of farming?

One drawing by a settler showed some small dwellings made of assembled bits of stick and log and root timber... the second little piggy.... looked just big enough to get in and sleep in.... hardly a shed or house.....

I also read a line that said that somewhere in WA some 'settler' came upon a section of yams growing - acres of them - didn't say they were planted and cultivated .. just that there were plenty there.... and not a native in sight from that record....

Big leap to saying there was house building and cultivation on a large scale...
[/quote]

Subtropical vine grown yams are not native to Australia.

So what ever was growing in WA it was some other native edible tuber or such.

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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