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Science vs. Religion (Read 17534 times)
Frank
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #60 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 1:20pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:27am:
Frank wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:29pm:
Natural proofs cannot be applied to supernatural beings.



That's convenient.




Frank wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:29pm:
That's a trivially interesting point but a lot of people fail to see it. What is much more significant is that much of what is human experience is also beyond natural, scientific explanations. Most of the significant things about us as human beings, a persons, is completely beyond natural and scientific explanations.

The entities of 'I' and 'you' are utterly non-scientific categories yet we live our lives in 'I and you' relationships.


I would argue that the sciences of psychology and anthropology could explain most of those things.

Well, argue it then, let's see how. Well you can argue it.
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #61 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:23pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:17am:
issuevoter wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:50am:

There are other stupid things in the Bible.

You don't need to fixate on 1.




Exactly correct issue.

Did you get that Raven ?

Don't get so fixated upon Kryptonite chariots ferrous chariots      Raven.





Using one example does not equate to fixation.

However an all powerful god, standing with Judah, should be able to defeat any foe before him. Including foot soldiers facing chariots.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #62 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:31pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:23am:

Raven,

Nice scripture quote, but you got the emphasis wrong in the reading of that quote.

[And yes, i concede that the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading.]


Judges 1:17
And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
18  Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but [Judah] could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
20  And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak.






Raven wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:

Which version are you quoting?    
KJV




You admit the emphasis is not clear. So how did Raven get the emphasis wrong?         
as i said, the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading




You'v added Judah's name in the scripture.          
yes i did.




Are you sure you are right to do so?         
i simply added Judah's name, in my reply to your post, for clarity in the reading of that verse.[/colors]



And even if you are right, god was with him and he still failed.

This does not sound like an all powerful creator.          [color=#ff0000]no, it doesn't.






hmm, i wonder why Judah 'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'  ?

there must be a reason why.

maybe it was because the tribe of Judah was 'afoot',      and the inhabitants of the valley had chariots of iron ?



sorta like men on foot carrying swords, going up against opponents in/on a form of cavalry.




So you have added text to God's word to provide clarity have you? Are you a Prophet? You clearly presume to know the will of God.

Tell us great one, what new truths are we missing?
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #63 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:18am
 
Amadd wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 11:40am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Amadd wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:23am:
I can go with the notion that science is also a faith. I have far more faith that an object will free fall at 9.8m/s/s than a man walking on water and rising into the sky.


Science isn't a faith because it can be tested, verified and proven.
You don't need to have faith that an object falls at 9.8 m/s/s. You can measure it and prove it.


Yes agreed. By "faith" I mean "complete trust and confidence", just like I have faith that religions are bs. God speaks in maths not words.


Is there any real difference between "faith" and wishful-thinking?
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #64 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 12:00pm
 
Raven wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:23am:

Raven,

Nice scripture quote, but you got the emphasis wrong in the reading of that quote.

[And yes, i concede that the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading.]


Judges 1:17
And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
18  Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but [Judah] could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
20  And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak.






Raven wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:

Which version are you quoting?    
KJV




You admit the emphasis is not clear. So how did Raven get the emphasis wrong?         
as i said, the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading




You'v added Judah's name in the scripture.          
yes i did.




Are you sure you are right to do so?         
i simply added Judah's name, in my reply to your post, for clarity in the reading of that verse.[/colors]



And even if you are right, god was with him and he still failed.

This does not sound like an all powerful creator.          [color=#ff0000]no, it doesn't.






hmm, i wonder why Judah 'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'  ?

there must be a reason why.

maybe it was because the tribe of Judah was 'afoot',      and the inhabitants of the valley had chariots of iron ?



sorta like men on foot carrying swords, going up against opponents in/on a form of cavalry.




So you have added text to God's word to provide clarity have you?

Are you a Prophet?

You clearly presume to know the will of God.

Tell us great one, what new truths are we missing?




Raven,

You are trying to load a burden upon me that i am unwilling to carry.

I choose to read scripture.

That is all.



.



Psalms 25:8
Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
9  The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.
10  All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.
11  For thy name's sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.
12  What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13  His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14  The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.


If a man seeks God, then [perhaps] God's spirit, will teach that man,

"...in the way that he shall choose."

That, is what reading scripture teaches me.




Why, 'perhaps' ?

Because men have no power, to choose God.

It is God who chooses us.


Psalms 73:1
Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean heart.


Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.


Revelation 17:14
....they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Cu Chulainn
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #65 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 3:07pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:23am:

Raven,

Nice scripture quote, but you got the emphasis wrong in the reading of that quote.

[And yes, i concede that the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading.]


Judges 1:17
And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
18  Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but [Judah] could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
20  And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak.






Raven wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:

Which version are you quoting?    
KJV




You admit the emphasis is not clear. So how did Raven get the emphasis wrong?         
as i said, the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading




You've added Judah's name in the scripture.          
yes i did.




Are you sure you are right to do so?         
i simply added Judah's name, in my reply to your post, for clarity in the reading of that verse.




And even if you are right, god was with him and he still failed.

This does not sound like an all powerful creator.         
no, it doesn't.






hmm, i wonder why Judah 'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'  ?

there must be a reason why.

maybe it was because the tribe of Judah was 'afoot',      and the inhabitants of the valley had chariots of iron ?



sorta like men on foot carrying swords, going up against opponents in/on a form of cavalry.




Alexander the Great is greater than Yahweh, his foot soldiers wiped out Darius' chariots at Gaugamela.

Quote:
Attack of the Persian scythed chariots
Darius now launched his chariots at those troops under Alexander's personal command; many of the chariots were intercepted by the Agrianians and other javelin-throwers posted in front of the Companion cavalry. Those chariots who made it through the barrage of javelins charged the Macedonian lines, which responded by opening up their ranks, creating alleys through which the chariots passed harmlessly. The Hypaspists and the armed grooms of the cavalry then attacked and eliminated these survivors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela#Attack_of_the_Persian_scythed_...
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #66 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:43pm
 
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:27am:
Frank wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:29pm:
Natural proofs cannot be applied to supernatural beings.



That's convenient.




Frank wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:29pm:
That's a trivially interesting point but a lot of people fail to see it. What is much more significant is that much of what is human experience is also beyond natural, scientific explanations. Most of the significant things about us as human beings, a persons, is completely beyond natural and scientific explanations.

The entities of 'I' and 'you' are utterly non-scientific categories yet we live our lives in 'I and you' relationships.


I would argue that the sciences of psychology and anthropology could explain most of those things.

Well, argue it then, let's see how. Well you can argue it.


I'm not a psychiatrist or an anthropologist.
I am merely pointing out that your claim that human behaviour, identity and relationships being beyond science is wrong. There are many branches of science that study it.
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #67 - Sep 25th, 2018 at 10:33pm
 
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 9:43pm:
Frank wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 1:20pm:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:27am:

I would argue that the sciences of psychology and anthropology could explain most of those things.



Well, argue it then, let's see how. Well you can argue it.



I'm not a psychiatrist or an anthropologist.

I am merely pointing out that your claim that human behaviour, identity and relationships being beyond science is wrong.

There are many branches of science that study it.




barnacle,


If that is correct, can you explain why human insanity and violence remains wholly unrestrained in the world today ?

Surely if human science has already extensively studied "human behaviour, identity and relationships" for the last century or so [and it has],
then surely human science would have found a useful methodology, which could be used and applied, to overcome and tame the source of human insanity and human violence ?

"There are many branches of science that study it."


If man's science and study, has a solution to such problems [i.e. the 'human condition'], then where is it ?




Dictionary;
Utopia = = an imagined perfect place or state of things.





QUESTION;
What is the solution to such problems ?


All ills even human ills, have causes.

If we ['human sciences'] continue to seek to address symptoms, instead of seeking to address the causes of problems,
i would confidently predict that mankind will never find a solution to the problems caused by 'problematic' human 'behaviour'.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #68 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 12:43am
 
issuevoter wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:18am:
Amadd wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 11:40am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Amadd wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:23am:
I can go with the notion that science is also a faith. I have far more faith that an object will free fall at 9.8m/s/s than a man walking on water and rising into the sky.


Science isn't a faith because it can be tested, verified and proven.
You don't need to have faith that an object falls at 9.8 m/s/s. You can measure it and prove it.


Yes agreed. By "faith" I mean "complete trust and confidence", just like I have faith that religions are bs. God speaks in maths not words.


Is there any real difference between "faith" and wishful-thinking?


Yes. I have faith that the religious are bs artists (as displayed by Yadda) and it's wishful thinking that they will be honest.
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #69 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 7:02am
 
Yadda wrote:

"Surely if human science has already extensively studied "human behaviour, identity and relationships" for the last century or so [and it has],
then surely human science would have found a useful methodology, which could be used and applied, to overcome and tame the source of human insanity and human violence ?"

I see no reason to make that assumption. The complexity of societies and populations are too vast.

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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #70 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 10:49am
 
Amadd wrote on Sep 26th, 2018 at 12:43am:
issuevoter wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 6:18am:
Amadd wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 11:40am:
The_Barnacle wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 2:05pm:
Amadd wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 10:23am:
I can go with the notion that science is also a faith. I have far more faith that an object will free fall at 9.8m/s/s than a man walking on water and rising into the sky.


Science isn't a faith because it can be tested, verified and proven.
You don't need to have faith that an object falls at 9.8 m/s/s. You can measure it and prove it.


Yes agreed. By "faith" I mean "complete trust and confidence", just like I have faith that religions are bs. God speaks in maths not words.


Is there any real difference between "faith" and wishful-thinking?


Yes. I have faith that the religious are bs artists (as displayed by Yadda) and it's wishful thinking that they will be honest.




Amadd,

I post in this forum, in order 1/ to express arguments 2/ and to ask questions [and yes, to affirm my own conclusions and beliefs].



I cannot prove anything, to another.

Personal experience is not 'proof', to another.

And the witness contained within scripture [the accounts of past experiences], is not 'proof'.




Amadd,

As i have stated many times in this forum [and this is a copy&paste]....

Really, i'm happy for you to believe whatever you want to believe.

Believe what you will.

We all do.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Raven
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #71 - Sep 26th, 2018 at 8:27pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 25th, 2018 at 12:00pm:
Raven wrote on Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 9:31pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 21st, 2018 at 11:23am:

Raven,

Nice scripture quote, but you got the emphasis wrong in the reading of that quote.

[And yes, i concede that the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading.]


Judges 1:17
And Judah went with Simeon his brother, and they slew the Canaanites that inhabited Zephath, and utterly destroyed it. And the name of the city was called Hormah.
18  Also Judah took Gaza with the coast thereof, and Askelon with the coast thereof, and Ekron with the coast thereof.
19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but [Judah] could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
20  And they gave Hebron unto Caleb, as Moses said: and he expelled thence the three sons of Anak.






Raven wrote on Sep 22nd, 2018 at 8:06pm:

Which version are you quoting?    
KJV




You admit the emphasis is not clear. So how did Raven get the emphasis wrong?         
as i said, the emphasis within that scripture quote is not clear in its reading




You'v added Judah's name in the scripture.          
yes i did.




Are you sure you are right to do so?         
i simply added Judah's name, in my reply to your post, for clarity in the reading of that verse.[/colors]



And even if you are right, god was with him and he still failed.

This does not sound like an all powerful creator.          [color=#ff0000]no, it doesn't.






hmm, i wonder why Judah 'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'  ?

there must be a reason why.

maybe it was because the tribe of Judah was 'afoot',      and the inhabitants of the valley had chariots of iron ?



sorta like men on foot carrying swords, going up against opponents in/on a form of cavalry.




So you have added text to God's word to provide clarity have you?

Are you a Prophet?

You clearly presume to know the will of God.

Tell us great one, what new truths are we missing?




Raven,

You are trying to load a burden upon me that i am unwilling to carry.

I choose to read scripture.

That is all.




Not at all Yadda, you are the one adding to God's word, any burden placed upon you is your own making.

You are not reading Scripture, you are adding to it.  Adding your own emphasis.
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Quoth the Raven "Nevermore"

Raven would rather ask questions that may never be answered, then accept answers which must never be questioned.
 
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Cu Chulainn
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #72 - Sep 27th, 2018 at 11:30pm
 
Raven, you should continue with YWHY is not all powerful. If YHWY was all knowing, why would he get so many people killed if he knew the outcome? Did he just want to see his people slaughtered?

Yadda, you should explain why Alexander could do what YWHY could not.
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #73 - Sep 28th, 2018 at 10:54am
 
Cu Chulainn wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 11:30pm:

Yadda, you should explain why Alexander could do what YWHY could not.



Cu Chullain,

Firstly, it was     Judah     who,    'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'.

Why not ?

I    believe    that Yahweh could have secured the success of the tribe of Judah.

But he did not.

Why not ?

I don't know.       [....and scripture does not explain why]




.



Cu Chulainn wrote on Sep 27th, 2018 at 11:30pm:

Raven, you should continue with YWHY is not all powerful.

If YHWY was all knowing, why would he get so many people killed if he knew the outcome?

Did he just want to see his people slaughtered?





"Did he just want to see his people slaughtered?"




Cu Chullain,

Scripture states that those things recorded in scripture [particularly in the O.T.], were recorded as examples to us who read scripture.


1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3  And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5  But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7  Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8  Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.


O.T. scripture records many, many instances of men dying in conflict with other men.

Human history, has been a history of human conflict.

Isn't that a 'lesson' for us ?

Q.
Shouldn't that history, be a 'lesson' for all of mankind ?


And if it is a 'lesson' for us,       shouldn't we ask ourselves [something like];

What is the cause of so many conflicts between men ?



.



James 4:1
From whence come wars and fightings among you?....



Don't you want to know the answer ?

Wink



.



So, so often, we [mankind] don't set aside the time [our time], to seek out the answers to important questions.

And even when we [mankind] do seek out the answers,    so, so often we will 'brush aside' what those answers reveal,
as being 'inconvenient' to us.



.



"All we have to decide, is what to do with the time that is given to us."

Gandalf - FOTR



Matthew 6:33
.....seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his [God's] righteousness;...



"For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence."




Indifference to human injustice and iniquity, is the gateway to hell.

Q.
Are you 'knocking on the door' ?




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Cu Chulainn
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Re: Science vs. Religion
Reply #74 - Sep 28th, 2018 at 6:04pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 28th, 2018 at 10:54am:
Cu Chullain,

Firstly, it was     Judah     who,    'could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley'.

Why not ?

I    believe    that Yahweh could have secured the success of the tribe of Judah.

But he did not.

Why not ?

I don't know.       [....and scripture does not explain why]



So having YHWH on your side has no benefit? It's pointless to try and appease him as he can't even be bothered to help you conquer the land he gave you because they have chariots of iron? When you win you glorify him, when you lose, you blame yourself. Sounds like an unhealthy relationship.


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