freediver wrote on Dec 18^th, 2018 at 7:57pm:


No I'm not, but you are definitely trying the tired old "not supporting bombing a country into smitherenes and ushering in untold years of chaos and instability = prefering brutal Islamofascism over establishing democracy" argument. Its a shame, but not really surprising given how well your other attempts at argument went down - like quoting doctors attesting to how effective taliban control was as somehow proof of a failed state.

I've made a few points, none of which relates remotely to saying the taliban were awesome and definitely preferable to establishing democracy. These include pointing out that you really couldn't imagine a worse outcome for both Afghanistan and western security - than the course that the US took in 2001. I pointed out that a viable diplomatic alternative to slaughtering Afghanis and allowing bin Laden to get away - was available to the US, which almost certainly would have been more effective in terms of meting out justice on the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks. I refuted your baseless and illogical argument that the US couldn't possibly have worked with the taliban because they were somehow a failed state - a claim for which you no valid or logical evidence to support.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


And you are yet to explain how 5 years of stability can't possibly be 5 years of stability - other than making the nonsensical non-argument that 'its not long enough'. And by the way, 5 years is a little bit more than 2 days - and we are not talking about ruling for 2 days, because the taliban didn't rule for just 2 days. These are incredibly difficult concepts to get your head around, I know, but do try to keep up.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


Ok, I get your point that following a course of action, or not following a course of action as the case may be - that provokes hostile foreign intervention is inherently destabilising for the country. But to make the connection between this and actually not having a properly functioning state is quite illogical and completely nonsensical IMO. If you were consistent you would have to say that Nazi Germany in the 30s was a 'failed state' because it had a foreign policy that made war with the allies (and therefore its eventual destruction) inevitable. And that idea is plainly ridiculous - surely even to you. As you said, the Nazis make the trains run on time.

freediver wrote on Dec 19^th, 2018 at 12:27pm:


This is naivity on stilts. Nothing but regurgitated, mindless US war propaganda.

The taliban may not have been able to hand over Bin Laden by themselves, but they certainly had the ability to cooperate with a US-led international law enforcement team to capture him. And don't give me nonsense about the taliban 'only willing to string the US along'. They were not suicidal like AQ, they could have been bargained with. Yes, of course, bargaining with a fundamentalist Islamist outfit that had harboured even worse fundamentalists who killed thousands of Americans - would leave a bad taste in your mouth-  but you have to decide whether you are interested in actual practical outcomes, or simply claiming the moral high ground while achieving nothing. The US decided the latter, and got the worst imaginable outcome for all involved - except bin Laden.

oh look, good ol' 'never ever' pops in for a visit again.

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:



What does that have to do with marines protecting opium fields?

UnSubRocky wrote on Dec 20^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:


Funny thing, the Americans seemed to lose their faux moral outrage over the taliban's treatment of women when they invited them to the White House early in 2001 to discuss that very pipeline.

If not for 9/11, its probable the Americans would have established diplomatic relations lasting to this day with that regime - something akin to their alliance with the morally reprehensible Saudi regime.

Karnal wrote on Dec 21^st, 2018 at 11:32am:


He found it was just easier to install his old oil buddy Hamid Karzai, and rig the elections for him.

Winter, Kabul. From his compound behind the Presidential Palace, Karzai looks out over his once proud city. Where is Gary now? Where are the Americans? The British? The German engineers?

Was it all a dream?

An icy wind blows through the city, whistling. When the sun rises, there will be fog.

The telephone rings, breaking through the darkness.

"Hamid?"

It is Ghani, damn him. He calls anytime. He is now Karzai's president. Once, he was a friend.

"Hamid? The Americans are taking more troops. What to do? It is giving me insomnia already."

"Ah, Ashraf, this is no longer our world. The wind, the fog, this is now our lot, insh'allah."

"But Hamid, we must act! You must do something! Call Gary, call Mr Trump, call anyone!"

"Gary no longer takes my calls, effende, but anyhow, he is gone too. Retired, living in Maine."

"And Trump?"

"Forget it, Ashraf, he's pretty much retired too. Putin, he will talk to. Me? I am yesterday. I am the past. I am no longer on the Fox News."

"But Mother said..."

"Ah. She talks to you? Me also, in my time. She is a goodly spirit."

"She is my only hope! The Americans will no longer help. The Taliban are giving me heart problems already. My blood pressure..."

Health has always been one of Karzai's obsessions, but like all hypochondriacs, he can't bear to listen to the health problems of others.

"Insh'allah, the Angel will guide you, Ashraf. Listen to her. She is always right."

"Ah, Hamid, she tells me to kill - some men with my own bare hands. My conscience..."

"Forget conscience, effende, the Angel speaks the word of God. This is the price we must pay. I also, in my time. Men like us cannot afford a conscience."

Karzai can hear the presidential hubbly bubbly on the other end of the line. Ghani must be onto his first bong of the day. Karzai is on the last bong of the night. Hashish and opium. It is the only thing that holds back the pain of the conscience. Also, it often brings a visit from the Angel, who gives advice. Karzai, after all, is still the president, just not in name. Today, he can relax and let Ashraf settle the blood. It is a part of the job no president likes.

In many ways, Karzai is like the Angel herself, directing Afghanistan from behind the scenes. Karzai's presidential terms expired, he can now rule without accountability. It is a good place to be, but then again, all in Afghanistan know Karzai stands behind the throne.

"Hamid, try Mr Trump again, I know he can help. Maybe there will be a new Gary soon."

"Insh'allah, there are no more Garys, Ashraf. It is the price we must pay. It is - how to say - independence."

"Oh Hamid, listen to who you are talking to. Independence? It's a sad joke. Afghanistan will never be independent. Britain, Russia, America, all. Let the Taliban dream of independence. We are pragmatic fellows."

"This may be, effende, but we must pretend. We are like an actor on the stage - an actor in the play of life. All countries want independence, isn't it. None may have it, not even America. But we pretend, we speak to the crowds, we go on TV. Then, when all is quiet, we listen to the Angel of Darkness, Mother of the Night. This is our lot, insh'allah. It is what we must do. Speak of independence, Ashraf, but act on dependence. It is all we can do."

"Yes, it is so. Can you just try Trump?"

"Okay! I will try again, Ashraf. Insh'allah, I will succeed. But let us wait until the day."

"Ah, Hamid, peace be upon you."

"Now go do your work. You have a meeting with the Pashtun Council today, no?"

"They never help. All they do is complain."

"But we must pretend, Ashraf. Be an actor. Listen and speak the lines I have given you. It is like chess. On their own, no piece can win, and yes, many must be sacrificed. But together - like the fingers in a hand - we may act, fingers that may form a fist or a caress."

Karzai takes a drag on his pipe then blows out its smoke, a long blue dragon of opium and hashish. With it, Karzai let's out a prayer.

"Mother of Darkness, Angel of Death, bring light to our friend Ashraf Ghani, president of all the tribes of Afghanistan! Bring him glory, bring him peace!"

"Blood pressure, Hamid..."

"Bring him health! Lower his blood pressure, insh'allah. Get him on a low cholesterol diet, he is putting on too much weight."

"It is Winter, Hamid. I'm not getting out much."

"Then get out! Go to Florida. It is sunny all year round. Gary gave me a compound there. Finally."

"Really?"

"Really. But it was not cheap. It cost much oil and gas. Still, it is not my oil and gas."

"It belongs to the people of Afghanistan."

"It belongs to God! He who sees all, hears all, owns all. I should go to Florida myself, get some sun."

"This might work, Hamid. Listen, Mr Trump has a palace there. You can buy a ticket and meet with him."

"Maybe. What is this Trump palace?"

"Mar a' Lago. Apparently you can play golf there. You can drive around in these little buggies."

"Well, it would be good to see the retirement compound again... Alright, I will visit this Mar a Lago. I will play some golf, drink cocktails. Insh'allah, I shall meet with Trump himself!"

"As God wills it, Hamid."

"Now go. Meet with the Pashtuns. Tell them to hold tight. Insh'allah, we will bring back America!"

A thin dawn breaks over Kabul. As always, the sun's fog creeps in from the east. Blue-grey, like the smoke from a hubbly bubbly.

Karzai and Trump? What to do? Stay reading, friends, and you will see.