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None of them were accused of blasphemy. Ahok was jailed for blasphemy. Hacking and defamation are against the law here also.

Would you like me to rephrase on account of your pedantry and evasiveness?

Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want about Islam. People who offer progressive interpretations of Islam get put in jail, very publicly.

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I apologise for not anticipating your pedantry and evasiveness. I did not mean they are allowed to yell fire in a theatre or accuse Ahok of having sex with goats.

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Enough to have a meaningful effect on public debate. Are you still pushing the angle that people would not be affected by Ahok's jailing?

This is the machinations of fascism unfolding on our doorstep, and you refuse to see what is right in front of you because you are a Muslim and it is Islamofascism.

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Again, I apologise for not anticipating your pedantry and evasiveness. I have already offered to rephrase for you: Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want about Islam. People who offer progressive interpretations of Islam get put in jail, very publicly.

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No. Hacking, slander and discrimination were the charges as I recall. Nothing to do with blasphemy.

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I mean people will self censor, proving this this BS of yours about a healthy free marketplace of ideas is just that - BS.

Do you still insist that Ahok's arrest will not affect anyone other than Ahok?

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What does Islam say about hacking?

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So it is not a restriction on freedom of speech if only high profile people get sent to jail of offering an interpretation of Islam that is similar to yours? I honestly don't understand why you are defending such a blatant attack on freedom of speech, or the "healthy free market of ideas" as you put it. This is your team getting imprisoned. This is your team getting censored. The Indonesian government is steering the debate about Islam in the exact opposite direction to what you claim to want, and you are cheering them on.

Would it be fair to say that Muslims cannot be trusted when they claim to support freedom of speech?

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 7:50pm:


Nothing. You might consider though addressing the issue of racial and religious vilification - by Islamic extremists. Are you actually going to make the claim that this can happen without those Islamic extremists actually saying anything about Islam?

Do you agree that the claim "Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want about Islam." is patently untrue? Or was your point only to say that "Islamic extremists in Indonesia can say whatever they want about Islam - though it might get them arrested for racial and/or religious vilification"?

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 7:50pm:


It demonstrably is a restriction FD - a single instance of a restriction. But you are being disinegenuous once again shifting the goalposts. Since when did this become a question of whether or not restrictions on free speech exist in Indonesia? My point was never to say there are no restrictions on free speech. In fact pointing out that there absolutely are restrictions was about the first point I made.

The issue is about wider Indonesian society, as I keep having to remind you. And you are making the most outlandish statements about Indonesian society 'self censoring' en masse and the entire country being an Islamofascist oppressive shithole - based on nothing else but this one incident of someone having their free speech curtailed. And whenever I remind you that these sweeping statements about an entire nation of 260 million people are completely baseless, you just return to talking about Ahok.

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 7:50pm:


I have not defended any attack on freedom of speech. I clearly stated that what happened to Ahok was wrong and it shouldn't have happened. The only conclusion I can make is that you are interpreting my refusal to accept that the Ahok verdict necessarily causes the entire Indonesian society - all 260 million of them - to self censor en masse on matters of religious debate and magically become an Islamofascist oppressive shithole - as defending the Ahok verdict. Which I find bizarre to say the least.

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 7:50pm:


let me guess - based on the Ahok verdict?

FD are you aware of the concept of separation of powers? The courts made the verdict, not the Indonesian government - based on laws that have been around for about 50 years. So the potential for this sort of verdict was always there - it just needed people who could be bothered to bring it before the courts. And these people were opposition figures - people in political party's opposed to Jokowi's governing party. So can you explain exactly how the government is responsible for this? Are you saying they should have interfered in the independence of the courts?

Or perhaps you weren't basing it on the Ahok verdict - in which case what is it?

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 10:04pm:


Islamic extremists get arrested for racial and religious vilification - and you think its reasonable to assume their arrest had nothing to do with what they said about Islam. Fair enough FD, I'll just end this little tangent by pointing out I don't think that would pass the laugh test for most people. And I think it is a useful illustration of you going to the most extraordinary lengths to maintain the position that there is no crackdown whatsoever currently going on against the hate speech perpetrated by Islamic extremists.

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 10:04pm:


Again, you are basing all your sweeping generalisations about the entire Indonesian society on a single incident. Ahok got arrested for blaspheming, the extremists in this one case did not - therefore, ipso facto, Islamic extremists anywhere and everywhere throughout the entire country can say whatever they want about Islam. Not to mention using that same faulty logic to go even further and conclude that because of this single incident, Indonesians en masse are self censoring about religion, there is definitely no healthy religious debate in Indonesian society, and all in all, Indonesia is a "oppressive Islamofascist shithole" - all because of this single incident.

Thats where your argument is at FD - that the state of religious debate in Indonesian society literally boils down to a single incident - an incident that you haven't even began to consider how widely known it actually is within Indonesia (as opposed to being particularly notorious amongst western audiences for obvious reasons), let alone the actual impact it has on the average Indonesian's life. I think its worth pointing this out at this point.

moses wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 3:27pm:

The Possessed.