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Islam is unreformable. Never ever. (Read 14193 times)

polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #135 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 9:44am

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 11:13pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 25^th, 2019 at 8:56am:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 10:04pm:

I see no reason why it can't.

Islamic extremists get arrested for racial and religious vilification - and you think its reasonable to assume their arrest had nothing to do with what they said about Islam. Fair enough FD, I'll just end this little tangent by pointing out I don't think that would pass the laugh test for most people. And I think it is a useful illustration of you going to the most extraordinary lengths to maintain the position that there is no crackdown whatsoever currently going on against the hate speech perpetrated by Islamic extremists.

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2019 at 10:04pm:

No. Ahok got arrested for offering his version of Islam. The extremists do not.

Again, you are basing all your sweeping generalisations about the entire Indonesian society on a single incident. Ahok got arrested for blaspheming, the extremists in this one case did not - therefore, ipso facto, Islamic extremists anywhere and everywhere throughout the entire country can say whatever they want about Islam. Not to mention using that same faulty logic to go even further and conclude that because of this single incident, Indonesians en masse are self censoring about religion, there is definitely no healthy religious debate in Indonesian society, and all in all, Indonesia is a "oppressive Islamofascist shithole" - all because of this single incident.

Thats where your argument is at FD - that the state of religious debate in Indonesian society literally boils down to a single incident - an incident that you haven't even began to consider how widely known it actually is within Indonesia (as opposed to being particularly notorious amongst western audiences for obvious reasons), let alone the actual impact it has on the average Indonesian's life. I think its worth pointing this out at this point.

Ask FD what he knows of Indonesian society, G. He won't tell me, despite saying they're much nicer than the sub-breed Negroid Muslims AKA Desert Niggras.

He knows about the Ahok trial, and that seems to be about it. And from that we get 'the entire Indonesian society is a self-censoring oppressive Islamofascist shithole, and Islamic extremists can say whatever they like about Islam'.

So there!

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49071 At my desk.	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #136 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 12:34pm Gandalf, when you have finished tapdancing, can you clarify whether you still insist that the Ahok verdict will not affect anyone other than Ahok? Do you think you have to jail everyone who offers a progressive interpretation of Islam to have a significant impact on public discourse?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #137 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 1:56pm

FD, I already said, it will undoubtedly affect a lot of people. Mostly, I suggest, in making people even more cynical of politicians using Islam as a politican weapon. Please take more care to actually read my answers before attacking me for 'tapdancing' and what not.
I also addressed the fact that ordinary Indonesians are smart enough to understand the difference between a blatant political attack on a high profile governor who had lots of political enemies - and the danger or otherwise of having a genuine exchange of knowledge about Islam at a local mosque. I also raised the question, which to date you still have no answer to, about what do you we know about how much a case like this actually penetrates the every day lives of Indonesians. Surely that would be fairly essential information required before making the sort of sweeping assertions about the impact this one case on Indonesian society that you are making?

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 12:34pm:

Do you think you have to jail everyone who offers a progressive interpretation of Islam to have a significant impact on public discourse?

No I don't. But that is a million miles from arriving at the conclusion that it must have permeated the whole of Indonesian society so deeply as to declare Indonesia an "oppressive Islamofascist shithole"

It has just occurred to me that you are constructing a strawman - that I am saying the Ahok verdict has no impact on Indonesian society whatsoever. Which of course is false. But it seems the purpose of this strawman is so you don't have to deal with the fact that you have to substantiate your baseless assertions - assertions like Indonesian society self censors en masse, and Indonesia is a "oppressive Islamofascist shithole".

Sorry FD, but it still comes down to you basing your sweeping and baseless assertions about the self-censoring and oppressive nature of Indonesian society - on a single incident, and worse, not even being able give any sort of meaningful indication of how far the incident impacted the attitudes and behaviour of normal Indonesians.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #138 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 2:50pm

Christian Churches Demolished in Indonesia to Appease Mob of Enraged Muslims
Tuesday, October 20, 2015

Authorities in the Aceh province of Indonesia began tearing down a number of Christian churches on Monday at the demand of hardline Muslims, as religious tensions have risen in the province in recent weeks.

According to Reuters, government workers in the Aceh Singkil district used axes and sledgehammers to dismantle several small Christian churches after many hardline Muslims in the area demanded that at least 10 Christian churches be demolished.

I mean there's a sight to gladden the hearts of the freethinking exchange of ideas muslims in Aceh.

It's free as long as it's islamic, anything else is forbidden in the freethinking Indonesian province of Aceh.

Real nice people the indoes.

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freediver

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #139 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 5:48pm

Quote:

FD, I already said, it will undoubtedly affect a lot of people. Mostly, I suggest, in making people even more cynical of politicians using Islam as a politican weapon.

So jailing prominent people who offer progressive interpretations of Islam won't affect public discourse by encouraging others to self censor?

Why are you so eager to polish the turd of Islamofascism?

How hysterical would you get in an Australian mayor was jailed for offering a positive interpretation of Christianity? Are you only capable of seeing the absurdity of your position when the blinkers of Islam are removed?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #140 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 7:16pm

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

So jailing prominent people who offer progressive interpretations of Islam won't affect public discourse by encouraging others to self censor?

FD, you're not going to prove your case simply by asking these rhetorical questions. You made the most outlandish sweeping generalisations about the whole of Indonesian society - and you are basing them entirely on a single, albeit high profile event. This doesn't pass any test of reason or logic. X happened to one politician - therefore this is the reason society is y - even though you have made no case that wider society is even 'y' in the first place. You are making a crude cause and effect argument - without even bothering to point out that the 'effect' is even happening. Its like if I started arguing that the cause of grandpa Joe's amnesia was the medication he was taking - without even feeling the need to find out if grandpa Joe even had amnesia in the first place. Does that seem reasonable to you?

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 5:48pm:

How hysterical would you get in an Australian mayor was jailed for offering a positive interpretation of Christianity?

Or even denying the holocaust? Not sure FD - but probably not so hysterical as to jump to the completely baseless conclusion that Australian society self censored en-masse and was an 'oppressive shithole' Wink

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #141 - Feb 26^th, 2019 at 8:54pm

Quote:

X happened to one politician - therefore this is the reason society is y

Islam is the reason it is a shithole Gandalf. You only had to ask.

Let's try again for a straight answer. Will jailing prominent people who offer progressive interpretations of Islam affect public discourse by encouraging others to self censor?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #142 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:14am

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 8:54pm:

Islam is the reason it is a shithole Gandalf. You only had to ask.

I think you are not being consistent here FD. You clearly implied that the ahok trial in and of itself makes people en masse self censor (baseless), and clearly linked that to your claim that Indonesia is an oppressive Islamofascist shithole. You can't very legitimately keep hailing the ahok trial as the be-all and end-all influencing factor in how Indonesian religious discourse is conducted - while at the same time say that its not really about that.

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2019 at 8:54pm:

Will jailing prominent people who offer progressive interpretations of Islam affect public discourse by encouraging others to self censor?

The correct answer here in the interests of keeping the topic on track (as opposed to veering off into endless useless tangents) is that its entirely irrelevant to validating your sweeping and completely baseless claims about Indonesian society. But since you are so insistent on a straight answer - sure, why not. Just like holocaust denial laws will no doubt encourage 'others' to self censor in Australia - and yet have no real relevance or effective bearing whatsoever on the question of whether or not Australia is an "oppressive shithole".

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49071 At my desk.	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #143 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:43am Gandalf this is a classic example of exactly why Islam is unreformable. In you we have a self-identified progressive Islamic reformer defending the very machine that would put him in jail for his efforts at reform.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #144 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:02pm

freediver wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:43am:

Gandalf this is a classic example of exactly why Islam is unreformable. In you we have a self-identified progressive Islamic reformer defending the very machine that would put him in jail for his efforts at reform.

deary me, FD, surely you realise this is a classic strawman deflection don't you?

I think even you realise that I haven't come close to defending attacks on freedom or the gaoling of reformers. In fact I stated my condemnation very clearly.

The only 'defending' going on is by you - namely your dogged defence of outrageously baseless and sweeping generalisations about an entire society, based on nothing but a single incident. But even that wouldn't be so bad if you had actually made an effort to justify it, as opposed to simply hurling mindless accusations of defending islamofascists at the person who criticises you.

« Last Edit: Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:11pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #145 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:47pm

You defended it by saying it would not cause Indonesian people to self censor. You deflected to various lies and strawman versions of my argument, for example:

* that I think the existence of the law alone causes self censorship
* that I think the jailing of Ahok alone causes self censorship

Apparently I did not actually say any of these, but I "clearly implied" them.

You get the picture. Anything but address the reality that Indonesia, the most progressive Muslim nation you can think of, is still a shithole of oppression because of Islam, where you yourself would risk jail for saying nice things about Islam like you do here. And your whole "healthy free market of ideas" under Islam is a lie.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #146 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:49pm

freediver wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:47pm:

You defended it by saying it would not cause Indonesian people to self censor.

No FD, I said there is no evidence of the connection. That is actually a big difference.

Once again you seem incapable of understanding the concept of burden of proof. Quite simply, you made the most outlandish sweeping statement about the whole of Indonesian society - that they self censor en masse, and is a "Islamofascist oppressive shithole" no less. If you think that there is no more required justification for such a claim than to simply point to the existence of a politician being gaoled for trumped up blasphemy charges - then I suggest you need a crash course in basic logic.

freediver wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:47pm:

You deflected to various lies and strawman versions of my argument, for example:

* that I think the existence of the law alone causes self censorship
* that I think the jailing of Ahok alone causes self censorship

You have literally provided no other evidence or justification for your claims on self censorship - apart from the inane throwaway line "Islam is what done it". What else am I supposed to glean from that FD?

freediver wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:47pm:

I "clearly implied" them.

You most certainly did. But here's a great opportunity for you to clear the record - and offer some compelling alternatives for why you think the claim that Indonesian society self censor en masse is rock solid - or that Indonesia is an oppressive Islamofascist shithole (admittedly a subjective term, so in the end its a rather meaningless charge, but anyway...).

freediver wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 6:47pm:

You get the picture.

Sorry FD, I'm afraid the only picture I have got so far is an argument that amounts to:

1. Ahok was gaoled for blasphemy
2. Therefore, ipso facto, Indonesians en masse self censor, and Indonesia is an Islamofascist oppressive shithole

There were a couple of 'side pictures' too, like asserting that Islamic extremists can say whatever they like about Islam, and there is definitely no crackdown going on against the hate speech of Islamic extremists - or if there is, its definitely nothing to do with what they say about Islam.

Apart from that, pretty much everything else has been "gandalf loves and defends attacks on free speech".

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #147 - Feb 28^th, 2019 at 7:15pm Islam in Iran has always been different from Islam everyelse. Their practice of Islam has been influenced by their pre-Islamic cultural and institutional millieu. Too bad Islam wasn't founded in Iran.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever.
Reply #148 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 7:53am

Auggie wrote on Feb 28^th, 2019 at 7:15pm:

Islam in Iran has always been different from Islam everyelse. Their practice of Islam has been influenced by their pre-Islamic cultural and institutional millieu.

Too bad Islam wasn't founded in Iran.

And yet Iran is one of the most oppressive Islamic countries. And thats really saying something.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49071 At my desk.	Re: Islam is unreformable. Never ever. Reply #149 - Mar 1^st, 2019 at 9:01am Quote: No FD, I said there is no evidence of the connection. Are you suggesting there is no evidence that jailing people acts as a deterrent to others?
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