Australian Politics Forum - Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin

Bam

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #15 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:19pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 5:33pm:

So it doesn't matter that they have a higher effective tax rate?

They pay no tax at all how can their tax rate be higher.

Perhaps what these fat cat retirees really want is to be made to pay tax like everyone else ... and then they will start squealing.

Some of these people have six-figure incomes with no income tax payable at all. Talk about entitled! Do they self fund all their medical care too?

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74262 Gender:	Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin Reply #16 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm: They have paid dividend imputation tax. no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.
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lee

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #17 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:01pm

John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm:

no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.

So if that is the case then shareholders who declare income over $37K haven't paid imputation tax either. But that is clearly not the case as Bill has specifically said they have, as they are allowed that imputation credit. Wink

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philperth2010 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20150 Perth Gender:	Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin Reply #18 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:11pm You cannot be double taxed if you pay no tax....Why should taxpayers give a refund on tax not paid....The scheme was established to prevent double taxation not give investors a 30% bonus!!!
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crocodile Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6683 Gender:	Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin Reply #19 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:19pm John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm: lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm: They have paid dividend imputation tax. no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing. The shareholders own the company you colostomy bag.
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Dnarever

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #20 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:19pm

Bam wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 5:33pm:

So it doesn't matter that they have a higher effective tax rate?

They pay no tax at all how can their tax rate be higher.

Perhaps what these fat cat retirees really want is to be made to pay tax like everyone else ... and then they will start squealing.

Some of these people have six-figure incomes with no income tax payable at all. Talk about entitled! Do they self fund all their medical care too?

If there are six figure income people yes they do pay their medical too as well as paying tax.

The people this is a problem for are self funded retirees who have an income just high enough that they get no pension.

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #21 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:20pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:19pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm:

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm:

They have paid dividend imputation tax.

no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.

The shareholders own the company you colostomy bag.

They still payed no tax on their income

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philperth2010

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #22 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:24pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:19pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm:

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm:

They have paid dividend imputation tax.

no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.

The shareholders own the company you colostomy bag.

The shareholders receive an after tax dividend and a 30% tax credit to offset any tax they have paid thus eliminating double taxation....Why should the taxpayer refund tax not paid???

Huh

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Dnarever

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #23 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:26pm

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

They pay no tax at all how can their tax rate be higher.

They have paid dividend imputation tax. Same as people earning more than $60,000.

Effectively a 30% tax rate.

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

You take some un-franked investments which means the company does not pay 30% tax on the pay out. i.e you get 30% more. You can then offset your franked credits against this investment profit. This means that you are paid more and still pay no tax on it.

That only works if the companies have unfranked dividends to distribute.

If the company is solely Australian based there will be no unfranked dividends as the company has paid tax on the profits.

It is their option and it is better for the company. They pay franked dividends because there is a demand for it and it makes their shares more attractive. If there is a benefit to un-franked dividends then this product will be made available.

There are plenty of companies that do this anyway.

If they don't provide the product the customer wants the customer will go somewhere else.

It would be stupid for companies to pay tax that they do not have to pay on behalf of their share holders when the shareholders get no benefit from it and the alternative is to pay the shareholder more money that will be an advantage.

It actually has no cost to the company to reverse a lot of the impact of this change. Instead of the shareholder claiming a 30% rebate the company pays them 30% more.

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« Last Edit: Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:34pm by Dnarever »

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #24 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:57pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:19pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm:

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 7:36pm:

They have paid dividend imputation tax.

no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.

The shareholders own the company you colostomy bag.

No, they do not - the owners own the company - you know .... the big shareholders? Ask them sometime... go tell Gina she doesn't own the joint... the little people are shareholders, not owners, and they are buying shares for an investment and to earn income.

You know full well that companies and shareholders are totally separate operating entities - and each is liable for their own tax.. the company pays its taxes, the recipient of income from shareholding pays his/her taxes.

Abolish dividend imputation and no more arguments... company pays it taxes and the shareholder pays his/her without all this nonsense going around and around.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #25 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:03pm

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:01pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 8:20pm:

no, the COMPANY has paid it's taxes. The shareholders have paid nothing.

So if that is the case then shareholders who declare income over $37K haven't paid imputation tax either. But that is clearly not the case as Bill has specifically said they have, as they are allowed that imputation credit. Wink

Rubbish - anyone whose overall income falls below the tax-free threshold is entitled to a return, and a part return may be available depending on actual income.... the ATO says so, and someone elsewhere also said that by law a return had to be paid in certain circumstances, where the taxpayer's income is within a specified range that says full or partial tax refund required.

It's all about REAL income vs claimed income using far to many available tax dodges.

This whole argument is just scare mongering.

What IS required is a total revamp of how so many people can pay no or little tax while enjoying the fat of the land.

Been arguing with a guy elsewhere who says (he say anyway) he has a family 'company', it pays no tax, he draws a salary - he pays no tax.. and he occasionally draws on shares via that 'company' and pays no tax...

Clear proof of why the rules for such things as 'trusts' and 'family companies' and 1+1 companies need to be abolished... clear proof of using it to rob the taxpaying public, who pay for his everything via deductions unearned and unwarranted.

As for companies - how about they started by paying the same income tax as Joe and Jo Toiler? On gross income minus a few lazy maybe deductions?

More screaming than a B-52 base on immediate alert takeoffs ....

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lee

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #26 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:12pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:26pm:

It is their option and it is better for the company.

No. The company pays tax. The imputation credits (the tax paid) are attached.

The only way for companies to have unfranked dividends is for them to come from overseas or be a legacy of taxation prior to 1985, which is of course not a growing source.

"Unfranked dividends have had no Australian company tax paid on the profits from which they are paid. If the dividend is unfranked, there is no franking credit."

https://www.ato.gov.au/forms/refund-of-franking-credits--application---instructi...

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:26pm:

If there is a benefit to un-franked dividends then this product will be made available.

You can't unfrank a dividend.

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:26pm:

It would be stupid for companies to pay tax that they do not have to pay on behalf of their share holders when the shareholders get no benefit from it and the alternative is to pay the shareholder more money that will be an advantage.

They pay tax on the profits. The shareholders are the owners. You can't magically disaggregate them.

Dnarever wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 9:26pm:

It actually has no cost to the company to reverse a lot of the impact of this change. Instead of the shareholder claiming a 30% rebate the company pays them 30% more.

Absolute drivel.

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« Last Edit: Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:30pm by lee »

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lee

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #27 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:14pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Rubbish - anyone whose overall income falls below the tax-free threshold is entitled to a return, and a part return may be available depending on actual income.... the ATO says so, and someone elsewhere also said that by law a return had to be paid in certain circumstances, where the taxpayer's income is within a specified range that says full or partial tax refund required.

That's current Law.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #28 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:17pm

lee wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:14pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Rubbish - anyone whose overall income falls below the tax-free threshold is entitled to a return, and a part return may be available depending on actual income.... the ATO says so, and someone elsewhere also said that by law a return had to be paid in certain circumstances, where the taxpayer's income is within a specified range that says full or partial tax refund required.

That's current Law.

Yup - and many such are in desperate need of overhaul to reflect reality, especially those pertaining to business and company and accounting - the fact remains that anyone with a genuine income lower than the tax-free threshold will continue to get a return, and some above get a part return... but they will have to put their whole income structure up for analysis first...

That'll send a few scurrying away... this is like Robodebt - sting the bastards and then let those who want to argue the point attack a brick wall...

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lee

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Re: Labor's Election Plans Without The Spin
Reply #29 - Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:20pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Feb 27^th, 2019 at 10:17pm:

Yup - and many such are in desperate need of overhaul to reflect reality, especially those pertaining to business and company and accounting - the fact remains that anyone with a genuine income lower than the tax-free threshold will continue to get a return, and some above get a part return... but they will have to put their whole income structure up for analysis first...

That's what they do. Interest, dividends, other income. Huh

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