Australian Politics Forum - If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say

Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #15 - Mar 6^th, 2019 at 6:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 2:19pm:

I've tried the 'this is what the Quran really means, and why' route K, its brick wall territory here.

But why does it have to be ?

A.
Only because you choose to make it so. [with your intentional moslem obfuscation]

.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 2:19pm:

Now I'm trying empathy, looking at it from their point of view.

If people have their hearts set on one particular interpretation of the Quran and can't be budged, then maybe its worth making your case from that starting point.

So I play devils advocate and weigh up the realities of a hypothetical world in which around 2 billion people adhere to a dangerous cult.....

Yes they do, gandalf.

And it is good of you to be willing to acknowledge and to state that, even it was only in jest ?

.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 2:19pm:

......invented by a homocidal maniacal psychopathic pedophile, who wrote an evil doctrine of bloodlust and hatred of anything non-muslim, and compelled all muslims to follow it.

No argument, gandaf.

You accurately describe the character of 'ISLAM's great man', Mohammed.
[cited and confirmed from ISLAMIC sources]

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

.

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 2:19pm:

If that really must be the starting point, then what would you prefer the thought processes of practicing muslims to be?

1/ To be honest and carry out the murder and destruction demanded by their cult,

2/ or to be dishonest and "gloss over" and do mental contortions to rationalise their cult into something peaceful and compatible with civilized society?

Does it make sense to mock and ridicule those adherents who do the latter? Not to me.

gandalf,

Why must you frame that argument as though there must only be those two options ????

Another option...... gandalf.

Option 3/
Moslems who are repulsed by what ISLAMIC scripture teaches,
could denounce AND renounce ISLAM, as a corrupting and violent philosophy.

Because they choose to reject Allah's commands [in the Koran], to murder non-moslems because they don't believe as they [moslems] believe.

.

gandalf, you complain about people [critics of ISLAM] ['somehow'] misrepresenting what the verses of Koran command...

gandalf said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1551516909/7#7
Quote:

freediver wrote on Mar 3rd, 2019 at 9:39am:
Quote:

Pakistan: Government minister says “Jihad is a duty in Islam. Those who avoid jihad are not Muslims.”

Gandalf likes to ignore or gloss over the parts of the Quran that tell him, quite clearly, that as a Muslim, fighting is ordained for him.

Fair cop.

I am a pacifist at heart and I try to find Quranic support for this stance.

Yes I rationalise the Quran, as I believe all muslims do,

and indeed as I believe the Quran itself encourages muslims to do.

gandalf,
Please explain to us, how do you 'rationalise' away what Allah commands in a verse like Koran 9.29 ?

Please show us [as practicing 'pacifist at heart' moslem], how you interpret Koran 9.29, in a way which allows you to disobey Allah,
'because Allah does not really mean, what the words of Koran 9.29, say they mean'.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

.

Even more.....

Quote:

Pakistan: Government minister says “Jihad is a duty in Islam. Those who avoid jihad are not Muslims.”
Mar 01, 2019

And gandalf, does that Pakistan Government minister speaking to moslems, speak the truth, regarding the mandatory obligation upon every believer ?

Or is he a liar, who is willfully and maliciously misrepresenting [a really pacifist] ISLAM ?

.

IMAGE....

'Aussie' EX-moslem, Mohamed Elomar, doing 'good works' in Syria/Iraq.

Quote:

'Whosoever dies without participating in an expedition (jihad) nor having the intention to do so, dies on a branch of hypocrisy,'

- 'Aussie' EX-moslem, Mohamed Elomar, quoting ISLAMIC scripture.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #16 - Mar 6^th, 2019 at 6:44pm

Gandi wrote:
Quote:

There is no meaningful difference moses, thats the point here. Muslims can and do "renounce" violence and "evil bits" purported to come from the Quran all the time. I can't see why insisting that violence and 'evil bits' exist in the Quran in the first place is a necessary prerequisite to reject violence in one's Islamic beliefs.

Where are your muslims who renounce the evil bits in the qur'an gandi?

You say you're objecting to the prerequisite to recognize that evil exists in the qur'an;

Well excuse me but what are you going to renounce, if you don't cite the depravity in the qur'an gandi?

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Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #17 - Mar 6^th, 2019 at 10:26pm

WWW search....
France: Muslim prisoner screaming “Allahu akbar” stabs guards with knife wife smuggled in during conjugal visit
By Robert Spencer on Mar 05, 2019
[but can you imagine the hullabaloo it would have caused,    if this 'innocent' and 'reserved' moslem woman, had been told that she would be subjected to a whole-of-body search, as a condition of her visit ?]

WWW search....
UK: Muslims tell Muslim cop she is not a “proper Muslim” because she was wearing uniform
By Robert Spencer on Mar 05, 2019
[coz ISLAM teaches about the brotherhood of all mankind - NOT! ]
"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." WWW search

WWW search....
Muslim from NZ joined ISIS, called for jihad massacres in NZ, would be “surprised” if NZ doesn’t allow him back
By Robert Spencer on Mar 05, 2019
[the moslem is the virtuous person.    and what right has a filthy disbeliever, to judge a moslem!
disbeliever = = 'the worst of creatures' - google it]

WWW search....
Islamic State jihadis call for steep escalation in online jihad
By Robert Spencer on Mar 05, 2019
[but around the world open criticism of ISLAM, is being criminalised in many jurisdictions [as ISLAM-O-PHOBIA].]

WWW search....
[not in the West]
Yemen: Girls as young as three being married off to much older men
By Robert Spencer on Mar 05, 2019
[nothing amiss here.    every good moslem knows, old men marrying young girls is 100% lawful, in ISLAMIC law.    Mohammed, was their example.]

WWW search....
[not in the West]
Philippines: Muslims murder man for failing to recite Qur’an verses, release six others who could recite them
By Robert Spencer on Feb 10, 2019
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you..." Koran 9.123
"And those with him [Mohammed] are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....." Koran 48.29
"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." WWW search

WWW search....
Texas teen converts to Islam, uses social media to recruit for jihad terror group
By Robert Spencer on Feb 10, 2019
[because, ISLAM is peace,    and because ISLAM teaches peace and tolerance of others, in all of its religious texts - NOT!]

WWW search....
New York City man converts to Islam, says “I want to execute. I want to behead,” tries to join jihad terror group
By Robert Spencer on Feb 10, 2019
[because, ISLAM is peace,    and because ISLAM teaches peace and tolerance of others, in all of its religious texts - NOT!]

WWW search....
Muslima from Canada: “Having slaves is part of Sharia. I believe in Sharia, wherever Sharia is”
By Robert Spencer on Feb 11, 2019
[coz ISLAM teaches about the brotherhood of all mankind - NOT! ]
"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." WWW search

WWW search....
Turkey: Politician calls for expulsion of Armenians as revenge for French recognition of Armenian genocide
By Christine Douglass-Williams on Feb 11, 2019
[coz, killing the enemies of Allah, ALL OF THEM, is not genocide.]
"...Harbi is the inhabitant of the DAR AL-HARB [house of war]. A harbi has no rights, NOT EVEN THE RIGHT TO LIVE....."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbi
Harbi = = "one under a declaration of war"

WWW search....
India: Large crowd of Muslims clap and cheer at court for Muslims who brutally murdered Hindu
By Robert Spencer on Feb 11, 2019
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you..." Koran 9.123
"And those with him [Mohammed] are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....." Koran 48.29
[because, ISLAM is peace]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #18 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 12:43pm

moses wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Gandi wrote:
Quote:

There is no meaningful difference moses, thats the point here. Muslims can and do "renounce" violence and "evil bits" purported to come from the Quran all the time. I can't see why insisting that violence and 'evil bits' exist in the Quran in the first place is a necessary prerequisite to reject violence in one's Islamic beliefs.

Where are your muslims who renounce the evil bits in the qur'an gandi?

You say you're objecting to the prerequisite to recognize that evil exists in the qur'an;

Well excuse me but what are you going to renounce, if you don't cite the depravity in the qur'an gandi?

They are our doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, you name it. They are all around you moses if you bothered to take notice. The vast majority of muslims in fact.

All of these people renounce violence. Thats the point. Why should it matter whether or not they accept that its ordained in the Quran or not? The only important thing should be is that they demonstrably do renounce violence.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #19 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 12:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 12:43pm:

moses wrote on Mar 6^th, 2019 at 6:44pm:

Gandi wrote:
Quote:

There is no meaningful difference moses, thats the point here. Muslims can and do "renounce" violence and "evil bits" purported to come from the Quran all the time. I can't see why insisting that violence and 'evil bits' exist in the Quran in the first place is a necessary prerequisite to reject violence in one's Islamic beliefs.

Where are your muslims who renounce the evil bits in the qur'an gandi?

You say you're objecting to the prerequisite to recognize that evil exists in the qur'an;

Well excuse me but what are you going to renounce, if you don't cite the depravity in the qur'an gandi?

They are our doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, you name it. They are all around you moses if you bothered to take notice. The vast majority of muslims in fact.

All of these people renounce violence. Thats the point. Why should it matter whether or not they accept that its ordained in the Quran or not? The only important thing should be is that they demonstrably do renounce violence.

Yes, but I think you'll find Moses wants them to renounce their religion.

Squatting down to pee and playing with your dick afterwards is optional.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #20 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 1:24pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 12:48pm:

Yes, but I think you'll find Moses wants them to renounce their religion.

One can't help thinking that its the schadenfreude of wallowing in a muslim's humiliation and indignity as they proclaim that they were wrong and he was right - that moses is most interested in.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #21 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 2:53pm

Gandalf wrote:
Quote:

They are our doctors, teachers, nurses, engineers, you name it. They are all around you moses if you bothered to take notice. The vast majority of muslims in fact.

All of these people renounce violence. Thats the point. Why should it matter whether or not they accept that its ordained in the Quran or not? The only important thing should be is that they demonstrably do renounce violence.

bullshit was all the band could play

What a load of absolute lies and passive support for islamic terrorism gandi.

The muslims who take the qur'an at it's word and perpetrate terrorist acts as an act of obedience to their faith, are absolutely no worse that the verses in the qur'an which motivate them.

The cause motivation and perpetration, are all inextricably linked gandi.

It's a total lie to say you reject the violence but you revere the cause of the violence.

If you support the cause and motivation, then it's a logical assumption that you support the engendered violence.

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Brian Ross

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #22 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 3:20pm

bullshit was all the band could play

What a load of absolute lies and passive support for Christian terrorism, Moses.

The Christians who take the Bible at it's word and perpetrate terrorist acts as an act of obedience to their faith, are absolutely no worse that the verses in the Bible which motivate them.

The cause motivation and perpetration, are all inextricably linked Moses.

It's a total lie to say you reject the violence but you revere the cause of the violence.

If you support the cause and motivation, then it's a logical assumption that you support the engendered violence. Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Tsk, tsk, such lies you peddle. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #23 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 5:14pm

moses wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 2:53pm:

It's a total lie to say you reject the violence

Its a simple statement of fact moses.

The vast majority of muslims reject violence. You can't simply reject this simple, undeniable fact using the bizarre logic that it mustn't be so because they disagree with your interpretation of the Quran. It makes no sense.

moses wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 2:53pm:

The muslims who take the qur'an at it's word and perpetrate terrorist acts as an act of obedience to their faith

...are a tiny minority of the entire muslim population - can you at least concede that?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #24 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 7:19pm

Gandi wrote:
Quote:

Its a simple statement of fact moses.

The vast majority of muslims reject violence. You can't simply reject this simple, undeniable fact using the bizarre logic that it mustn't be so because they disagree with your interpretation of the Quran. It makes no sense.

Gandi you yourself admit that some muslims take the qur'an at its word and become terrorists.

This means that the qur'an can and is being used to justify terrorism right now in the 21st century.

This then means that the qur'an is flawed.

What is this flaw?

The qur'an contains evil verses which cause and motivate islamist human rights atrocities.

There is only one answer to your trouble gandi.

That is to denounce these evil components of the qur'an as not being fit for a modern civilization.

You tell everybody lies about how the violent bits can be disregarded, glossed over etc.etc..

All you're doing is saying that you prefer, the status quo of, some muslims will use the present version of the qur'an to commit the most inhumane of human rights atrocities against their fellow man, rather than denouncing the many evil bits of the qur'an

Quote:

are a tiny minority of the entire muslim population - can you at least concede that?

1 or a 100, it doesn't matter gandi, because the favoured modus operandi of the muslim terrorist is to take out as many soft targets as possible, they deliberately target innocent men women and children who are in a situation, where the muslim terrorist will slaughter them in great numbers.

You will have to eventually take responsibility for the evil in the qur'an gandi, that's as sure as the sun comes up in the east, the longer you put it off, the worse the end result will be gandalf.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #25 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 8:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 1:24pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 12:48pm:

Yes, but I think you'll find Moses wants them to renounce their religion.

One can't help thinking that its the schadenfreude of wallowing in a muslim's humiliation and indignity as they proclaim that they were wrong and he was right - that moses is most interested in.

That's certainly part of it, G. Moses predicts a time when the Muslims will say he's right. "And upon that day, Islam will cease to exist."

Then we can get to work on the tinted races.

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Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #26 - Mar 7^th, 2019 at 11:42pm

WWW search....
Turkey: Muslim cleric who incited Muslim to murder Russian ambassador still preaching, with protection from Erdogan
By Robert Spencer on Mar 06, 2019
[any moslem who speaks to 'radicalise' believers [followers of ISLAM], in a way that will cause them to act to 'defend ISLAM' [i.e. be moved to kill an 'oppressor', a 'disbeliever'], is a virtuous person, and a good moslem. ISLAMIC law. Koran 4.74-76]

WWW search....
[not in the West]
Malaysia: Muslim leaders urge police action against people insulting Muhammad and Islam
By Robert Spencer on Mar 06, 2019
[in an ISLAMIC law jurisdiction, refusing an 'invitation' from a moslem, to convert to Allah's perfect religion, can attract the accusation, of insulting Mohammed and ISLAM. which is a capital crime, in almost all ISLAMIC law jurisdictions.]

WWW search....
[not in the West]
WATCH ISIS bride who wants to return to US when she’s asked about her tweet urging Muslims to slaughter Americans
By Robert Spencer on Mar 06, 2019
[Allah hates 'disbelievers'.    and so do the followers of ISLAM.    even the ones who will tell you to your face, that its OK to be secular, or to be of another faith.    ask [the dead], Yazidis, Zoroastrians, Armenians, Christians, Jews.]

WWW search....
Australia: Muslim who mowed down pedestrians says “I did it in the name of Allah”
By Robert Spencer on Feb 12, 2019 11:17 am
[a good moslem, is obedient to Allah]
"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216
"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

WWW search....
[not in the West]
Despite her acquittal, Pakistani authorities barring accused blasphemer Asia Bibi from leaving the country
By Robert Spencer on Feb 12, 2019
[because Asia Bibi is a blasphemer, who has rejected the 'invitation' to convert to Allah's perfect religion.
and every good moslem knows, that such a person [if they are within the power of Sharia jurisdiction] must die.
ISLAMIC law.]

WWW search....
“Are you serious? What’s wrong with you?”: Ilhan Omar yells at reporter who asked about her anti-Semitic tweets
By Robert Spencer on Feb 13, 2019
["Are you serious? What’s wrong with you?"    Ilhan Omar is a moslem, so she is 'entitled' to hate Jews!! and, doesn't everyone hate Jews !!!    moslems are commanded by Allah to have hatred for Jews [they are among those who have rejected their own subjection, to Allah's perfect religion].]
The Koran depicts the Jews ['and Pagans'] as the people who have the strongest enmity toward the moslems. Koran 5:82

WWW search....
Muslim U.S. Air Force Intelligence Specialist tried to pass classified American information to Iran
By Robert Spencer on Feb 13, 2019 01:16 pm
[Q. where does the allegiance of a follower of ISLAM lay ??? A. only with those persons whom he, considers to be his, 'brothers'.]
"Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders." WWW search

WWW search....
Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker embraces Jew-hating Muslim cleric Yasir Fahmy
By Robert Spencer on Feb 13, 2019
[because, ISLAM is peace,    and because the ISLAMIC community in the U.S. need to be embraced and welcomed, as co-citizens. because then everything will be fine.]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #27 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 8:13am

moses wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

Gandi you yourself admit that some muslims take the qur'an at its word and become terrorists.

This means that the qur'an can and is being used to justify terrorism right now in the 21st century.

This then means that the qur'an is flawed.

This argument is making less and less sense to me. You are basically saying the existence of *ANY* extremist/terrorist element within a religion, no matter how tiny, is sufficient to dismiss the doctrine of that religion as 'flawed' which necessarily must be denounced and abandoned. Its a bit like saying the existence of *ANY* testosterone in society is justification enough to castrate every male - since you would assuredly eliminate all rape if all males were castrated.

But even stranger is you are not even consistent with this argument. Presented with the same dilemma in christianity, you simply retort that the extremists in Christianity are going against the teachings of Christ, and therefore the problem is not doctrinal.

moses wrote on Mar 7^th, 2019 at 7:19pm:

You will have to eventually take responsibility for the evil in the qur'an gandi, that's as sure as the sun comes up in the east, the longer you put it off, the worse the end result will be gandalf.

no, the correct solution is for muslims to find ways to rationalise the 'difficult' parts of the Quran into something that is compatible with peaceful and tolerant coexistence - while at the same time not compromising their core belief that the Quran is infallible. Which it turns out is what the vast majority if muslims do, very successfully. Your only solution is for muslims to literally give up a fundamental part of what it means to be muslim (belief in the quran as the true word of God). And that is both unfair and completely impractical.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49371 At my desk.	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #28 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 10:15am Gandalf would you say that as a Muslim, fighting is ordained for you?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #29 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 1:35pm

I don't translate it as "ordained", more like "permitted" - as in you are allowed to fight strictly in self defense.

Would you prefer I started believing that my religion ordains that I must go forth and kill as many non-muslims as I can?

Or would you agree its actually a good thing in the interests of the safety and wellbeing of society that there are muslims like me who make the peaceful, violence-strictly-only-in-self-defence case for Islam?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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