Australian Politics Forum - If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say

moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #30 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:01pm

Gandalf wrote:

Quote:

This argument is making less and less sense to me. You are basically saying the existence of *ANY* extremist/terrorist element within a religion, no matter how tiny, is sufficient to dismiss the doctrine of that religion as 'flawed' which necessarily must be denounced and abandoned. Its a bit like saying the existence of *ANY* testosterone in society is justification enough to castrate every male - since you would assuredly eliminate all rape if all males were castrated.

But even stranger is you are not even consistent with this argument. Presented with the same dilemma in christianity, you simply retort that the extremists in Christianity are going against the teachings of Christ, and therefore the problem is not doctrinal.

First off 64% of the qur'an is devoted to promoting hatred for and punishment of the kufir hypocrite and corrupters

Every single muslim islamist is 100% convinced that committing human rights atrocities against the non believers will automatically gain them admittance into your paradise, resplendent with aliens with big tits and little boys. (they can quote chapter and verse the evil parts of the qur'an which motivate them gandi).

It is not a tiny part gandi the majority of your book is at fault.

As for the Christian bit it is a fact that the teachings of Christ do not promote atrocities being committed in the name of Christ.

conversely

The teachings of muhammad cause and motivate islamic terrorists to commit unspeakable human rights atrocities against their fellow man.

Quote:

no, the correct solution is for muslims to find ways to rationalise the 'difficult' parts of the Quran into something that is compatible with peaceful and tolerant coexistence - while at the same time not compromising their core belief that the Quran is infallible. Which it turns out is what the vast majority if muslims do, very successfully. Your only solution is for muslims to literally give up a fundamental part of what it means to be muslim (belief in the quran as the true word of God). And that is both unfair and completely impractical.

Oh so now you're going to *rationalize* something which is utterly evil?

Don't forget that while you're *rationalizing* the evil bits, men women and children are dying as the islamists follow the qur'an (which has not been *rationalized*) to the very letter.

Rationalizing is a load of codswallop gandi, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

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« Last Edit: Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:10pm by moses »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #31 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:27pm

moses wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:01pm:

Every single muslim islamist is 100% convinced that committing human rights atrocities against the non believers will automatically gain them admittance into your paradise, resplendent with aliens with big tits and little boys. (they can quote chapter and verse the evil parts of the qur'an which motivate them gandi).

This is not saying anything at all useful moses, it really isn't.

Whatever the minority of Islamists are doing and how they justify their evil, there are many times more peace-loving muslims who can and do quote chapter and verse the parts of the Quran which motivate them. You still haven't explained why its the minority that "proves" what the Quran really is, and not the majority - apart from reverting back to your tired old "take my word for it - the Quran really is all that". Your argument simply flies in the face of logic. At the very very least you should have the good grace to acknowledge that the vast majority of muslims themselves reject your interpretation of the Quran.

You talk as if its only the Islamists who have a doctrinal case to make.

moses wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:01pm:

Rationalizing is a load of codswallop gandi, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.

Ah we must be getting to 'never ever' again. If all else fails...

Whats codswallop is the notion that only you and the tiny minority of Islamists are correct about Islamic doctrine, and the beliefs of the vast majority of muslims can and must be arrogantly dismissed.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #32 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:32pm Basically there are two parts to moses' "logic": 1. the Islamists may be a minority, but they are definitely right 2. I personally know better than the vast majority of muslims what Islamic doctrine means.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #33 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:36pm oh goody, now here comes Yadda for his two-bobs worth... What are the odds of a long, rambling quote-infested flogging of a dead horse that concludes with the profound finding that muslim == follower of Islam?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #34 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:38pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 10:15am:

Gandalf would you say that as a Muslim, fighting is ordained for you?

FD,
Ask gandalf who are moslems 'allowed' to hate, and 'allowed' to fight, and 'allowed' to kill.

And was Allah wrong to issue commands, like those that are contained in Koran 9.123, and Koran 48.29 ?

.

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #35 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:32pm:

Basically there are two parts to moses' "logic":

1. the Islamists may be a minority, but they are definitely right
2. I personally know better than the vast majority of muslims what Islamic doctrine means.

That might be true, dear, but Moses has been given an F for his knowledge of Christian doctrine.

He thinks Jesus refusing to be tempted by Satan is a decree to hate the Muselman - a religious duty no less.

Mind you, Moses loses marks for refusing to elaborate, indicating he knows what a ridiculous assertion this is. This porkie is Moses' religious justification for his entire campaign of hate. And if Christians step in to say, no, that's not what our Teacher meant, they need to be hated too. After all, if you think Christianity is about loving thy neighbour as thyself, you're a filthy Muslim apologist.

But I'm curious. Should Moses get any marks for just making stuff up? Should he get marks for making religious texts out to mean the opposite of what they say? What mark would you give Moses for his various interpretations of the Holy Quran?

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Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #36 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 3:13pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 2:47pm:

....Moses has been given an F for his knowledge of Christian doctrine.

He thinks Jesus refusing to be tempted by Satan is a decree to hate the Muselman - a religious duty no less.

Mind you, Moses loses marks for refusing to elaborate, indicating he knows what a ridiculous assertion this is.

This porkie is Moses' religious justification for his entire campaign of hate.

And if Christians step in to say, no, that's not what our Teacher meant, they need to be hated too.

After all, if you think Christianity is about loving thy neighbour as thyself, you're a filthy Muslim apologist.

K,

If moslems kill people, expressly because their victims don't believe what they [moslems] believe,
do other people [including Christians and Jews], have any right to judge ISLAM and to judge the actions of moslems ?

K,

Do you feel that it is wrong [unjust] to judge wrongdoers [e.g. 'wrongdoers' being murderers and people who incite and encourage the murder of others],
if the murderers are members of a minority group in society ?

K,

Does the N.T. show that Jesus [as a Jewish man] upheld Mosaic law, as it related to criminals ?

K,

Do you find the precepts which are being encouraged in these O.T. bible verses [below] to be objectionable or unjust in their nature ?

.

Isaiah 1:17
Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Leviticus 19:15
Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 25:1
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #37 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 3:38pm

Gandi wrote:

Quote:

This is not saying anything at all useful moses, it really isn't.

Whatever the minority of Islamists are doing and how they justify their evil, there are many times more peace-loving muslims who can and do quote chapter and verse the parts of the Quran which motivate them. You still haven't explained why its the minority that "proves" what the Quran really is, and not the majority - apart from reverting back to your tired old "take my word for it - the Quran really is all that". Your argument simply flies in the face of logic. At the very very least you should have the good grace to acknowledge that the vast majority of muslims themselves reject your interpretation of the Quran.

You talk as if its only the Islamists who have a doctrinal case to make.

&

Ah we must be getting to 'never ever' again. If all else fails...

Whats codswallop is the notion that only you and the tiny minority of Islamists are correct about Islamic doctrine, and the beliefs of the vast majority of muslims can and must be arrogantly dismissed.

You're side stepping the issue gandalf.

The issue is that certain muslims can and do cite the qur'an as their cause and motivation for human rights depravities being committed in the name of islam and allah, around the globe.

The problem is a world wide one, muslims are the number one listed global terrorist threat, because of the teachings in the qur'an.

You say *trying to make out the islamists are the only ones to have a case*.

I say to you they most certainly do have a case, they are the ones who are slaughtering innocent men women and children, because your book tells them to.

Are you now going to use the excuse that they should be ignored because of the ratio of muslims good / bad?

They are the ones who are standing out in the crowd, simply because your book causes and motivates them to commit depravities ,as an act of believing in the words of muhammad / allah.

The qur'an is flawed, why?

Because it can and is being used to justify islamic terrorism around the globe.

To stop the terrorism you have to denounce the parts of the qur'an which the terrorists cite as their justification.

Reinterpreting, glossing over, rationalizing, (name your next excuse here), will not work, the original will always be available and will be used by muslims in the future to commit atrocities against their fellow man.

After all that is exactly what the verses of the qur'an were produced for, it was muhammads way of putting a divine coat on his desire to spread islam across the land, as the superordinate supremacist not to be questioned doctrine.

In the 21st century the qur'an is a flawed fallible book.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #38 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 3:48pm

Quote:

K,

Do you feel that it is wrong [unjust] to judge wrongdoers [e.g. 'wrongdoers' being murderers and people who incite and encourage the murder of others]

This is not for Christians to say, Y. Our Teacher instructs us to judge not as we surely shall be judged. He tells us not to point out the spec in another's eye but to remove the beam in our own. Most importantly, He tells us to understand and be compassionate towards those who murder, torture and kill us as we are sinners ourselves.

Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.

This is the path our Teacher laid out for us. It is, as you'll agree, not for the faint-hearted. It's a path of steadfast faith, but as His disciple Paul said, even more important than faith is love.

As disciples ourselves, we don't justify hatred by saying we're only human but we're Christians and we're forgiven anyway. Our Teacher said that's wrong. Not all who go in His name, He said, shall enter the Kingdom. All are judged in the end, and there are many rooms in the Father's house.

Nor do we pretend it's okay to hate because our Teacher said we should not test God. For our Teacher, this represented a lack of faith - the very opposite of hating and encouraging others to hate. Our Teacher's message was this: we ascend through faith and love. This is how we remove our sin, how we cut it off at the source.

There are other paths, but this is the one Jesus the Christ taught. All paths have elements of these teachings, including the path taught by the teacher Mohammed.

You can follow our Teacher or not, no one can force you. But if not, it's best to acknowledge this. If you preach hate, I think it's best to leave our Teacher out of it.

You?

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #39 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 3:59pm

moses wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 3:38pm:

Gandi wrote:

Quote:

This is not saying anything at all useful moses, it really isn't.

Whatever the minority of Islamists are doing and how they justify their evil, there are many times more peace-loving muslims who can and do quote chapter and verse the parts of the Quran which motivate them. You still haven't explained why its the minority that "proves" what the Quran really is, and not the majority - apart from reverting back to your tired old "take my word for it - the Quran really is all that". Your argument simply flies in the face of logic. At the very very least you should have the good grace to acknowledge that the vast majority of muslims themselves reject your interpretation of the Quran.

You talk as if its only the Islamists who have a doctrinal case to make.

&

Ah we must be getting to 'never ever' again. If all else fails...

Whats codswallop is the notion that only you and the tiny minority of Islamists are correct about Islamic doctrine, and the beliefs of the vast majority of muslims can and must be arrogantly dismissed.

You're side stepping the issue gandalf.

The issue is that certain muslims can and do cite the qur'an as their cause and motivation for human rights depravities being committed in the name of islam and allah, around the globe.

The problem is a world wide one, muslims are the number one listed global terrorist threat, because of the teachings in the qur'an.

You say *trying to make out the islamists are the only ones to have a case*.

I say to you they most certainly do have a case, they are the ones who are slaughtering innocent men women and children, because your book tells them to.

Are you now going to use the excuse that they should be ignored because of the ratio of muslims good / bad?

They are the ones who are standing out in the crowd, simply because your book causes and motivates them to commit depravities ,as an act of believing in the words of muhammad / allah.

The qur'an is flawed, why?

Because it can and is being used to justify islamic terrorism around the globe.

To stop the terrorism you have to denounce the parts of the qur'an which the terrorists cite as their justification.

Reinterpreting, glossing over, rationalizing, (name your next excuse here), will not work, the original will always be available and will be used by muslims in the future to commit atrocities against their fellow man.

After all that is exactly what the verses of the qur'an were produced for, it was muhammads way of putting a divine coat on his desire to spread islam across the land, as the superordinate supremacist not to be questioned doctrine.

In the 21st century the qur'an is a flawed fallible book.

Certain Muslims can and do cite the Quran to justify rape and slaughter, Moses. This is just porkies.

As our Teacher said, not all who go in His name shall enter the Kingdom. The teacher Muhammed said similar.

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freediver

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #40 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 4:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 1:35pm:

I don't translate it as "ordained", more like "permitted" - as in you are allowed to fight strictly in self defense.

Would you prefer I started believing that my religion ordains that I must go forth and kill as many non-muslims as I can?

Or would you agree its actually a good thing in the interests of the safety and wellbeing of society that there are muslims like me who make the peaceful, violence-strictly-only-in-self-defence case for Islam?

You should have added that to your list. Ignore. Brush over. Alter.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #41 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 4:17pm

Quote:

All paths have elements of these teachings, including the path taught by the teacher Mohammed.

Well according to muhammad:

Quote:

qur'an 24.33:And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

Yeah muzzie boys if you do force them well allah is often forgiving

Quote:

qur'an 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely allah is high, great.

Yeah muzzie boys if she plays up just give her a touch up

Quote:

qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”

well you know muzzie boys if she is a bit flamboyant just lock her up until she dies

Quote:

qur’an 24:1 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”

O.K. muzzie boys get out the whip and give her the minimum of 100 lashes

Conversely

According to Christ.: Quote:

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her

For the life of me I just can't reconcile the two as being similar.

But then I'm just a ISLAMOPHOBE.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #42 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 5:08pm

Your first verse refers to slave girls being forgiven by Allah and holding no shame if they're raped. It's pretty clear, dear. The preceding sentence says not to rape your slave girls.

But I'm curious. Given your admonition to hate and ban the Muselman for the way he treats women, why are you quoting Jesus saying not to throw stones if you've sinned?

Did Yeheshua say we should hate and ban sinners instead?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #43 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 6:44pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 4:11pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 8^th, 2019 at 1:35pm:

I don't translate it as "ordained", more like "permitted" - as in you are allowed to fight strictly in self defense.

Would you prefer I started believing that my religion ordains that I must go forth and kill as many non-muslims as I can?

Or would you agree its actually a good thing in the interests of the safety and wellbeing of society that there are muslims like me who make the peaceful, violence-strictly-only-in-self-defence case for Islam?

You should have added that to your list. Ignore. Brush over. Alter.

Do you think its better for muslims to ignore, brush over and alter the alleged bad bits of the Quran, or follow them faithfully?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #44 - Mar 8^th, 2019 at 6:55pm moses will defend to the death the Islamists and their 'correct' interpretation of the Quran, and be damned any muslim who wants to promote a peaceful Islam! Moses will not rest until all peaceful muslims desist with their absurd renunciation of violence and utter the words "death to the infidel!"
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged