Australian Politics Forum - If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #90 - Mar 13^th, 2019 at 6:41pm Downplaying a particular behaviour's significance to a particular issue is not "defending" it FD. That should be pretty obvious.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #91 - Mar 13^th, 2019 at 7:32pm

moses wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 3:10pm:

Because gandi, the argument has been, the qur'an needs glossing over ignoring or rationalizing and reinterpreting, in order for islam to catch up to Judaism and Christianity in the world peace stakes.

Not from me.

I am every bit as devout as the jihadis in my interpretation. So too are the vast majority of muslims.

The problem you have is your entire perspective is clouded by the overriding belief that it is literally not possible to sincerely believe in an alternative interpretation of the Quran to that espoused by the extremists.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #92 - Mar 13^th, 2019 at 8:56pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 6:41pm:

Downplaying a particular behaviour's significance to a particular issue is not "defending" it FD. That should be pretty obvious.

Yes it is Gandalf. Obviously when it comes to Islam, "downplaying" is about as far as you can go while keeping a straight face. You are attempting to defend the influence of Islam on society by downplaying the very real attacks on freedom of speech. You implied that it would not lead to self censorship, you misrepresented my argument in every way you could think of - that the law alone causes self censorship, that the jailing of Ahok alone causes self censorship, that every single Indonesian will self censor. You did all of this lying and misrepresentation to avoid addressing the simple reality of the situation.

You polish, so that others may eat. You defend the people who put your Indonesian equivalents in jail. You claim to support freedom of speech, but when pressed turn into a cheerleader for the oppressors. Islam compels you to defend what, in the absence of your religious bond to the oppressor, you would call out for what it is.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #93 - Mar 13^th, 2019 at 9:33pm

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 6:41pm:

Downplaying a particular behaviour's significance to a particular issue is not "defending" it FD. That should be pretty obvious.

Yes it is Gandalf. Obviously when it comes to Islam, "downplaying" is about as far as you can go while keeping a straight face. You are attempting to defend the influence of Islam on society by downplaying the very real attacks on freedom of speech. You implied that it would not lead to self censorship, you misrepresented my argument in every way you could think of - that the law alone causes self censorship, that the jailing of Ahok alone causes self censorship, that every single Indonesian will self censor. You did all of this lying and misrepresentation to avoid addressing the simple reality of the situation.

You polish, so that others may eat. You defend the people who put your Indonesian equivalents in jail. You claim to support freedom of speech, but when pressed turn into a cheerleader for the oppressors. Islam compels you to defend what, in the absence of your religious bond to the oppressor, you would call out for what it is.

Strange. I read G's responses to you where he described the Muslim leaders who got Ahok prosecuted as corrupt. He even made the case that they're cynically in bed with the military. As G said, they don't care about blasphemy, they're simply out to do away with all political opposition. The case G put to you is that freedom of speech in Indonesia is far more complicated than your one example of the Ahok blasphemy case.

So I'm curious. You interrogated, quote-bombed, started up a new thread to reel G in and used all the usual FD tactics. You responded to each and every post where G said the above - it made up the basis for your multiple quotes. You asked him to repeat it. He did. A number of times.

So is it possible that you forgot what G said and got his argument all mixed up? Or do you uphold the use of porkies in your campaign against the Muselman?

Thanks, FD. A simple yes or no will suffice.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #94 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 9:45am

freediver wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 8:56pm:

You implied that it would not lead to self censorship

Incorrect FD. I reasonably put it to you that your insistence that it does, in real life Indonesian society, lead to self censorship, is unsupported by any actual evidence. Your "evidence" consisted of absolutely nothing except the gaoling of a politician on trumped up blasphemy charges, and a bold assumption that this necessarily affects how wider society behaves - without even bothering to a) establish any link from one to another and b) even demonstrate your alleged behaviour in wider society.

Did you notice that in all your hand wringing about how you think Indonesian society must behave as an inevitable result of this one case, you never once thought to provide even a single example of this claimed behaviour?

Quote:

the jailing of Ahok alone causes self censorship

Thats literally what you said FD. You spent about 5 pages in the other thread using the sole example of Ahok to make all kinds of outlandish statements about Indonesian society - including that they self censor. Of course you may have other reasons to think this, but you certainly didn't present any. I can but assess you only on what you write.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #95 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 10:39am

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 9:33pm:

As G said, they don't care about blasphemy, they're simply out to do away with all political opposition. The case G put to you is that freedom of speech in Indonesia is far more complicated than your one example of the Ahok blasphemy case.

After the anti-Ahok rent-a-crowds had their say, 10s of thousands of Jakartan's flooded the streets to counter the religious bigots. Funnily enough, this protest didn't get as much western media attention.

In the gubernatorial election that followed, with a massive cloud already hanging over Ahok, and with the bigots doing all they could to coerce muslims to follow the Quran and not vote for a non-muslim - Ahok ended up getting over 40% of the vote, far outpolling the other two candidates. Of course he lost the runoff because the eliminated candidate's votes all flowed to the runner up. But of all 3 candidates, Ahok, despite all the intimidation and bullying going on, was still the most popular - by far.

Last year Indonesia held their regional and mayoral elections, which is widely viewed as a yardstick for the next Presidential and national parliament elections. Predictably, western media assuming like FD that the Ahok trial was the be-all and end-all influencing factor, expected a widespread Islamofascist wave. The Islamofascists themselves buoyed by their victory in Jakarta assumed the wider Indonesian public would cower to their intimidation and sweep them into power all across Indonesia. Reality? They were a big fat flop. There was no Islamist wave, the Indonesian public despite everything, gave them the big middle finger.

These are admittedly crude measures, but it is at least *A* way you can get some sort of guage on the actual attitudes and behaviour of Indonesian society in response to political events like the Ahok gaoling. And really no one should be surprised - Indonesian political representation has never been chock full of Islamists, it has always been secular nationalists who dominate the political sphere. And the ruling class is normally very harsh on extremists flexing their muscles - whether its jihadi activity or run of the mill hate speech. FD's assertion that Indonesian extremists can (and I quote) "say whatever they want" is plainly nonsense.

So this is the basis from which I started this whole sorry argument - that the broad trends and tone of Indonesian politics and democracy (as opposed to single anecdotes) is reasonable grounds to make broad assumptions about its wider society. I think I also originally referred to the results of surveys that have shown Indonesians to have progressive values roughly comparable to most western nations (c.f. PEW survey). This suggests to me, even if somewhat indirectly, that the state of the 'market of religious ideas' is relatively free and open. At the very least it goes against any notion that Indonesian society is, as FD puts it, an "oppressive Islamofascist shithole".

Of course I'm willing to be proven wrong, I welcome it. I welcome FD to make an actual case for why Indonesian society is a self-censoring "Islamofascist shithole", with actual evidence. Until then though, we are left with nothing but a sweeping stereotype based on nothing but a single case of gaoling with a non-existent link to how Indonesians are assumed to behave.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #96 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 1:02pm

Quote:

whether it's Jihadi activity or run of the mill hate speech. FD's assertion that Indonesian extremists can (and I quote) "say whatever they want" is plainly nonsense.

Interestingly, Bumi Yami, the politician who started the case against Ahok, was jailed for hate speech. I guess his political opponents had had enough of him, but that's what these crimes are all about in Indonesia: a political tit for tat that annoys Indonesians no end.

Quote:

The charges and counter-charges between political rivals have become rampant, as seen before in the 2017 Jakarta gubernatorial election.

Impossible to revoke

Hence, the increase in blasphemy cases is neither a result of rising intolerance and Islamic radicalism in society nor a phenomenon typical of a non-secular state.

The blasphemy law opens the door for politicians to gain power by capitalising on religious sentiments and the public’s rage that polarise society. As long as Indonesia’s blasphemy law serves the interest of political elites, it is impossible to revoke this law.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0t_e6l4HhAhXGo48KHSCm...

I blame Freeeeedom.

You?

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« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2019 at 6:24pm by Karnal »

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #97 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 3:09pm

Gandalf wrote reply 91 yesterday at 7.32pm.
Quote:

moses wrote: Quote:

Because gandi, the argument has been, the qur'an needs glossing over ignoring or rationalizing and reinterpreting, in order for islam to catch up to Judaism and Christianity in the world peace stakes.

gandi wrote:
Quote:

Not from me.

I am every bit as devout as the jihadis in my interpretation. So too are the vast majority of muslims.

The problem you have is your entire perspective is clouded by the overriding belief that it is literally not possible to sincerely believe in an alternative interpretation of the Quran to that espoused by the extremists.

There we go again with the *interpretation* excuse.

Why is the qur'an so open to differing interpretations gandalf?

Why do some muslims believe they have to slaughter as many innocent non muslims as possible as their main religious duty on this earth?

For this to be possible (and it is actually happening), your book has to be flawed.

Your interpretation excuse falls flat on it's face with the islamic rapists torturers and mass murderers gandi, because they are not interpreting anything, they in fact are following the words as they are literally written.

No interpretation needed for them, slay means slay, forced sex means forced sex, kill means kill, cut of opposing hands and feet means cut off the hands and feet, they do exactly what the qur'an tells them gandalf, no twisting and turning and trying to tell us that the qur'an is a book of, secret hidden meanings and peace and goodwill for all men.

It's coming gandi as sure as the sun comes up in the east, one day the globe will turn on you and demand that you deal with (denounce), the evil in your book.

In that day islam dies gandi (no more allah/muhammad/qur'an are perfect and can't be changed), the foundation of islam will be destroyed, islam will simply implode.

Hopefully you take leftard ideology down with you, but that may be asking a bit too much, only time will tell.

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Frank

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #98 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 5:46pm

moses wrote on Mar 14^th, 2019 at 3:09pm:

Gandalf wrote reply 91 yesterday at 7.32pm.
Quote:

moses wrote: Quote:

Because gandi, the argument has been, the qur'an needs glossing over ignoring or rationalizing and reinterpreting, in order for islam to catch up to Judaism and Christianity in the world peace stakes.

gandi wrote:
Quote:

Not from me.

I am every bit as devout as the jihadis in my interpretation. So too are the vast majority of muslims.

The problem you have is your entire perspective is clouded by the overriding belief that it is literally not possible to sincerely believe in an alternative interpretation of the Quran to that espoused by the extremists.

There we go again with the *interpretation* excuse.

Why is the qur'an so open to differing interpretations gandalf?

Why do some muslims believe they have to slaughter as many innocent non muslims as possible as their main religious duty on this earth?

For this to be possible (and it is actually happening), your book has to be flawed.

Your interpretation excuse falls flat on it's face with the islamic rapists torturers and mass murderers gandi, because they are not interpreting anything, they in fact are following the words as they are literally written.

No interpretation needed for them, slay means slay, forced sex means forced sex, kill means kill, cut of opposing hands and feet means cut off the hands and feet, they do exactly what the qur'an tells them gandalf, no twisting and turning and trying to tell us that the qur'an is a book of, secret hidden meanings and peace and goodwill for all men.

It's coming gandi as sure as the sun comes up in the east, one day the globe will turn on you and demand that you deal with (denounce), the evil in your book.

In that day islam dies gandi (no more allah/muhammad/qur'an are perfect and can't be changed), the foundation of islam will be destroyed, islam will simply implode.

Hopefully you take leftard ideology down with you, but that may be asking a bit too much, only time will tell.

Taqiya and kitmān are Arabic for 'in my interpretation'.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Karnal

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #99 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 6:26pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2019 at 4:01pm:

Quote:

Because gandi, the argument has been, the qur'an needs glossing over ignoring or rationalizing and reinterpreting, in order for islam to catch up to Judaism and Christianity in the world peace stakes.

The non-peaceful parts of the Bible have not been corrected or "renounced", dear. The Torah and the Bible are seen by Judaism and Christianity as the unerring, unalterable word of God.

Indeed, it was so unalterable that the Old Testament was handed down through the generations by word of mouth. Not a word was changed.

Christians don't have to renounce St Paul's views to allow female ministers or accept gays into their congregations. Jews don't have to renounce Leviticus to justify not stoning adulterers to death. Indeed, many religious Jews don't even circumcise their sons (or any servants they may have). They certainly don't all sacrifice lambs at Passover.

It is quite possible to be a modern subject and have an ancient religion without "renouncing" anything. Jews sometimes conduct a symbolic bris for their sons without the circumcision. They hold to the belief that it's the thought that counts. Jews will even put "symbolic" blood on their doorsteps for Passover - quite an evolution for a religion based on a blood covenant.

The Quran, of course, outlines no such specific laws or rituals. The 5 pillars is it. Even circumcision is just a recommendation.

So I'm curious. Why should only Muslims have to renounce their book? Why not Jews and Christians?

What's the matter, Moses? Cat got your tongue?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say Reply #100 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 6:45pm moses wrote on Mar 14^th, 2019 at 3:09pm: There we go again with the interpretation excuse. I'm not sure what else you expect us to do with a book written in 7th century arabic.
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Jasin

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #101 - Mar 14^th, 2019 at 11:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 14^th, 2019 at 6:45pm:

moses wrote on Mar 14^th, 2019 at 3:09pm:

There we go again with the *interpretation* excuse.

I'm not sure what else you expect us to do with a book written in 7th century arabic.

Yes. It's not like Australians have come up with a better version beyond adopting a Foreign alternative. Cheesy

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #102 - Mar 15^th, 2019 at 2:20pm

@ karnal

Quote:

The non-peaceful parts of the Bible have not been corrected or "renounced", dear. The Torah and the Bible are seen by Judaism and Christianity as the unerring, unalterable word of God.

I think they believe / know the books are the words of men (not God), said men are driven by their ruling spirit.

Quote:

Indeed, it was so unalterable that the Old Testament was handed down through the generations by word of mouth. Not a word was changed.

Oh well thank goodness for that, and here's me thinking the bible was Fifteen Hundred Years In The Making. The Bible Was Written By Many Authors With Many Occupations. Scripture Was Written In Different Literary Forms. It Was Written Upon Three Continents. Scripture Was Composed In Many Different Circumstances. Three Different Languages Were Employed In Scripture. There Are Many Different Subjects Covered In The Bible. Most Authors Did Not Know One Another

Quote:

Christians don't have to renounce St Paul's views to allow female ministers or accept gays into their congregations. Jews don't have to renounce Leviticus to justify not stoning adulterers to death. Indeed, many religious Jews don't even circumcise their sons (or any servants they may have). They certainly don't all sacrifice lambs at Passover.

St Pauls view is just that his view of society 2019 years ago.

As far as I know there is absolutely nothing in the O.T. which tells the Jews that their societal laws were binding for all times.

Quote:

It is quite possible to be a modern subject and have an ancient religion without "renouncing" anything. Jews sometimes conduct a symbolic bris for their sons without the circumcision. They hold to the belief that it's the thought that counts. Jews will even put "symbolic" blood on their doorsteps for Passover - quite an evolution for a religion based on a blood covenant.

Except for one over riding fact, the qur'an is primarily about muslim supremacy and oppression of the non muslim. It is written in the present tense, so the commands to thieve rape torture and kill are as relevant today as they were 1400 years ago.

That is exactly what is happening right now, muslims around the globe are following the literal qur'an and committing human rights atrocities, as a religious requirement.

Quote:

The Quran, of course, outlines no such specific laws or rituals. The 5 pillars is it. Even circumcision is just a recommendation.

So I'm curious. Why should only Muslims have to renounce their book? Why not Jews and Christians?

Just how much crap are you capable of?

64% of the qur'an is devoted to the muslim supremacist oppression of the non believer.

Hence the problem today in the 21st century is muslim depravity.

It's got sweet fanny adams to do with Hinduism Buddhism Judaism paganism Christianity whatever, it's solely a muslim problem caused by the evil in the qur'an.

They have to renounce the commands from allah as being evil.

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Yadda

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #103 - Mar 15^th, 2019 at 2:26pm

WWW search....
A Month of Multiculturalism in Britain: February 2019
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/13862/multiculturalism-britain-february
by Soeren Kern
March 11, 2019

[CONSIDER;       although female genital mutilation [FGM], has been a criminal offense in Britain since 1985,
"the illegal practice, ....may affect up to 60,000 girls in the UK". !!!!

Q. why so ?

we know that the practice of FGM is not native to the people of the U.K.
and, if persons from immigrant communities [in the U.K.] have been well integrated into U.K. society [as i am sure those who support mass immigration into the U.K. will claim],
why are so many persons from immigrant communities willing [and being permitted] to so blatantly flout U.K. laws, in this area related to the health of many young girls ? ]

WWW search....
North Dakota: Muslima arrested for threatening people with knife says “I’m being attacked because I am a Muslim”
By Robert Spencer on Mar 13, 2019 04:00 pm

[while others are considered wrongdoers, for their wrongdoing, accused moslems, always claim to be the innocent victim.

this is coz, moslems are innocent people and, are the virtuous people.
and when a moslem comes into any form of conflict with a disbeliever,
then it is not possible for the moslem to be the wrongdoer [hey, 'i'm the innocent person' !].
DON'T BELIEVE ME ?
Q.    have you EVER, EVER, EVER, known a moslem, who has been charged with any criminal offence, within any Western nation,
admit criminal guilt and wrongdoing ? ever ? ]

WWW search....
Georgia: Muslima assembles “kill lists” of servicemembers for group linked to the Islamic State
By Robert Spencer on Mar 13, 2019

[nothing amiss here.    those infidel service members, being in the service of the government of an infidel nation, are all confirmed, 100%, to be Allah's enemies.
this is a completely kosher kill list.
Q. did you ever wonder what our 'Aussie' muslima's kill lists look like ? i'm sure that ASIO is on it. ]

WWW search....
Islamic Republic of Iran sentences lawyer who defends women who don’t wear hijab to 38 years prison, 148 lashes
By Robert Spencer on Mar 13, 2019
"Iranian human rights lawyer Sotoudeh sentenced to 38 years in prison, 148 lashes..."

[defending accused women in ISLAMIC courts, is not halal.
and, "ISLAM is the most feminist religion" - Yassmin Abdel-Magied

ISLAM is peace, and ISLAMIC law is just and fair.
"....and if you contradict us, we will, KILL YOU!, for insulting Allah's religion!"
n.b. < ---- this is what the followers of ISLAM are defending. ]

WWW search....
Islamic State jihadi: “What is our guilt? What is our crime? We just wanted to apply the sharia of Allah.”
By Robert Spencer on Mar 13, 2019
"ISIS is routinely dismissed [in the West] as un-Islamic, but...."    [we must and should, examine how Jihadis always insist that their 'legitimate' authority, is wholly derived from the authority of ISLAMIC law, Allah's law !]

[IN AUSTRALIA;    local moslems by their actions [over time], will often reveal, that they have little, or no respect, for Australian laws and Australian cultural norms.
in every mosque in Australia, the imam will teach that ISLAMIC law is superior to 'man made' laws [i.e. local laws].
[and even though, moslems may publicly deny that, that is taught, here in Australia.
this is what many imams teach to their congregants ---- > ]

WWW search....
the muslim must obey the law of the land - as long as local law does not violate Allah's law
the muslim must obey the law of the land - except where local law is in conflict with Allah's law
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1491782088/4#4

WWW search....
“Islamophobia expert” who became an Islamic State jihadist is arrested in Syria
By Christine Douglass-Williams on Mar 13, 2019

[coz, 'ISLAM-O-PHOBIA' is a crime against Allah.
anyone who 'scrutinises' or criticises ISLAMIC teaching and the religion of ISLAM,
can be said to be 'waging war against Allah'. [see below] ]

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, "
Koran 5.33

WWW search....
Germany: Researcher blames multiculturalism for rise of Arab gangs and no-go zones in Berlin
By Christine Douglass-Williams on Mar 13, 2019

[that is total B.S.
everyone knows that    ISLAM is peace,    and the followers of ISLAM are the virtuous people. PERIOD.
if there is wrongdoing, it is non-moslems who are the cause of it. PERIOD.
ISLAM is peace.    honest! ]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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moses

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Re: If you care, PAY ATTENTION, to what they say
Reply #104 - Mar 15^th, 2019 at 4:17pm

Gandalf wrote:
Quote:

moses wrote Quote:

There we go again with the *interpretation* excuse.

gandi wrote Quote:

I'm not sure what else you expect us to do with a book written in 7th century arabic.

Now now gandi enough of that naughty taqiyya.

Of course we all know that interpret can be used in the translation sense of one language to another (Arabic to English in this case).

But you my friend are always fallaciously using *interpret* as an excuse to tell us the literal translated words have an entirely different meaning to what they actually say.

You use this excuse constantly as you're forbidden to question the evil in the qur'an.

Slay means slay, forced sex means forced sex, amputating hands and feet means cutting off hands and feet, etc. etc.etc..

Your book does not promote peace and love amongst mankind, as it's overall theme gandi.

In fact the very opposite is the case, pure malevolence against non believers hypocrites and apostates.

You have a problem gandi, unfortunately for you because of the stupidity of muhammad (the qur'an is infallible and the actual commands of allah), has you in this bind, you simply can't be honest and denounce the evil in the qur'an with out destroying the foundations of your beliefs.

It is coming however gandi, the world will turn on islam and demand that muslims renounce the evil in the qur'an.

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