Australian Politics Forum - freedom from religion

Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85427 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: freedom from religion Reply #165 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 12:53am There is no freedom from religion - there is freedom from religious control - which is why Australia opposes Islam.... with its absolute adherence to religious law and social control ... Tell me again why they're here at all when they are so opposed to our way of life......
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freediver

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #166 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 10:01am

Raven wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2019 at 11:48pm:

At the end of the day, society in it's wisdom has realised we have to place certain limits on our freedoms.

That includes freedom of religion.

In 1966 the UN recognised that in accordance with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the ideal of free human beings enjoying civil and political freedom and freedom from fear and want can only be achieved if conditions are created whereby everyone may enjoy his civil and political rights, as well as his economic, social and cultural rights.

As such in 1976 the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights came into effect.

Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights originally read

Quote:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

However after 1976, article 18 refers to religion as simultaneously an individual right, and a collective right. It has both an ‘internal’ dimension (the freedom to adopt or hold a belief), and an ‘external’ dimension (the freedom to manifest that belief in worship, observance, practice or teaching). While the internal dimension is absolute, the external dimension can be subject to certain limitations.

Further article 18.3 states that, freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

Folau's opinion did not infringe on anyone else's rights.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #167 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 1:46pm

John Smith wrote on Jun 30^th, 2019 at 3:08pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 30^th, 2019 at 3:06pm:

That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.

and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.

Pretty much all that is needed to be said on the matter.

Also here is the relevant clause:

Quote:

treat everyone equally, fairly and with dignity regardless of gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, ethnicity, cultural or religious background, age or disability.

Folau lumped in gays with thieves, drunks and liars. Clearly not treating gays "fairly and with dignity". Incidentally, as in interesting aside, RA could also have taken the same action based on what he said about atheists.

In clauses like this ultimately the contractee gets to decide how it is interpreted. If Folau had any concerns that his "free speech" would violate that clause, he should have sought verification before he posted it. In any case, the fact that RA notified Folau before they announced termination that it would be a breach of contract, means that Folau already knew what he was doing was breaching contract. He may not agree, FD may not agree - but neither sought clarification with RA about what the relevant clause actually meant in practice.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49475 At my desk.	Re: freedom from religion Reply #168 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 1:53pm Gandalf would you be so supportive if Muslims started getting fired for expressing their views on Islam on the internet, or mindless collectives of treacherous Jews?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #169 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 2:08pm

Its not supporting FD, I think RA have acted foolishly.

It is merely an ackowledgement of the fact that RA have the legal right to do what they did - and they have the relevant clause in the signed contract to prove it. Any argument (as you attempted originally), that the clause was too vague to conside Folau's tweet an actual breach is dismantled as soon as you see how specific it actually was (see my quote above).

Folau can't claim any legal or moral right to continue being contracted by RA - and certainly not on any freedom of speech grounds

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Aussie

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #170 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 2:10pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 1:53pm:

Gandalf would you be so supportive if Muslims started getting fired for expressing their views on Islam on the internet, or mindless collectives of treacherous Jews?

I am confident he would if said supporter had signed a Contract with his employer NOT to so express himself on the www.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #171 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 2:31pm

Aussie wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 2:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 1:53pm:

Gandalf would you be so supportive if Muslims started getting fired for expressing their views on Islam on the internet, or mindless collectives of treacherous Jews?

I am confident he would if said supporter had signed a Contract with his employer NOT to so express himself on the www.

More correct to say I wouldn't be making any song and dance about their freedom of speech being attacked - rather than "supporting" the actions of whoever they signed a contract with.

Its like if anyone who supports gays being treated equally and fairly, signed a contract that fairly clearly indicated that you must not make any social media statements in supporting the rights of gays. They can't legitimately then start whinging that their freedom is being attacked if their contract got terminated as a result of making such statements. Especially if their employee had repeatedly warned them that doing so would breach the contract.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #172 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 5:39pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 2:08pm:

Its not supporting FD, I think RA have acted foolishly.

It is merely an ackowledgement of the fact that RA have the legal right to do what they did - and they have the relevant clause in the signed contract to prove it. Any argument (as you attempted originally), that the clause was too vague to conside Folau's tweet an actual breach is dismantled as soon as you see how specific it actually was (see my quote above).

Folau can't claim any legal or moral right to continue being contracted by RA - and certainly not on any freedom of speech grounds

How do you know they have the legal right?

I never argued that the vagueness was relevant legally.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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John Smith

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #173 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:07pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 11:52pm:

Raven wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 9:29pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 9:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 8:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 8:51pm:

There you go John and Aussie. Are you going to tell me that this is not Raven saying people have a right to freedom from religion?

no, what I am telling you is that it isn't coming from
Raven
Captain Nemo
Cods
Pecca
John Smith

Now, why do you feel you have to lie all the time FD?

I was quoting Raven.

Quote:

He was fired because he breached his code of conduct.

And you lie when you suggest it was not about his religious views. You are spinelessly apologising for homofascism, trying to reduce what happened to a technicality.

Say you owned a business and you had an employee who continually insulted your customers and you said to that employee "Ok I get it, you have an issue with some of of the customers who frequent this business. But would you mind not insulting them."

Your employee ignores you and continues to insult some of your customers. It brings your business into disrepute.

Did you fire them because of their beliefs or because of how it could effect your business?

So poofs are going to refuse to fly QANTAS (gotta fly QANTAS - never a fatal air crash... QANTAS...QANTAS... American Airlines Flight 191 crashed at O'Hare, May 25, 1979..... lotta people killed.. aaarrh.. aaarh....aaaarh)
because someone says poofs will go to hell?

I doubt it...

QUANTAS is the customer you fool. Rugby Australia is the business. RA has a right to protect it's income sources, namely the tens of millions of dollars sponsors like quantas provide (and it wasn't just quantas that was making noise).

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Gnads

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #174 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:14pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:07pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 11:52pm:

Raven wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 9:29pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 9:05pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 8:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2019 at 8:51pm:

There you go John and Aussie. Are you going to tell me that this is not Raven saying people have a right to freedom from religion?

no, what I am telling you is that it isn't coming from
Raven
Captain Nemo
Cods
Pecca
John Smith

Now, why do you feel you have to lie all the time FD?

I was quoting Raven.

Quote:

He was fired because he breached his code of conduct.

And you lie when you suggest it was not about his religious views. You are spinelessly apologising for homofascism, trying to reduce what happened to a technicality.

Say you owned a business and you had an employee who continually insulted your customers and you said to that employee "Ok I get it, you have an issue with some of of the customers who frequent this business. But would you mind not insulting them."

Your employee ignores you and continues to insult some of your customers. It brings your business into disrepute.

Did you fire them because of their beliefs or because of how it could effect your business?

So poofs are going to refuse to fly QANTAS (gotta fly QANTAS - never a fatal air crash... QANTAS...QANTAS... American Airlines Flight 191 crashed at O'Hare, May 25, 1979..... lotta people killed.. aaarrh.. aaarh....aaaarh)
because someone says poofs will go to hell?

I doubt it...

QUANTAS is the customer you fool. Rugby Australia is the business. RA has a right to protect it's income sources, namely the tens of millions of dollars sponsors like quantas provide (and it wasn't just quantas that was making noise).

You dickhead without quality players like Folau RA has no business ....

and the worse they perform the more likely sponsors will fall off anyway.

Catch22 no?

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"When you are dead, you do not know you are dead. It's only painful and difficult for others. The same applies when you are stupid." ~ Ricky Gervais

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49475 At my desk.	Re: freedom from religion Reply #175 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:15pm Do they have the right to fire people for expressing their religious beliefs?
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35587 Gender:	Re: freedom from religion Reply #176 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:15pm freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:15pm: Do they have the right to fire people for expressing their religious beliefs? Nope. Next.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49475 At my desk.	Re: freedom from religion Reply #177 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:17pm Do you mind if John speaks for himself Mothra?
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John Smith

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #178 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:17pm

Gnads wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:14pm:

You dickhead without quality players like Folau RA has no business ....

and the worse they perform the more likely sponsors will fall off anyway.

Catch22 no?

sure, folau is a good player. RA survived when folau was playing aerial ping pong and league and they'll survive long after he is gone.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75246 Gender:	Re: freedom from religion Reply #179 - Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:18pm freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2019 at 6:15pm: Do they have the right to fire people for expressing their religious beliefs? they fired him for breaching his contract.
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged