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freedom from religion (Read 11796 times)
freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #45 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:05pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 2:46pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 2:42pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
Quote:
Losing your job is not the same as being banned from an internet forum. One is demonstrable harm, the other is being a whiny little bitch.


That's merely a question of arguable degree (which I am happy to debate with you,) and fails to address the actual point.  If you agree to a set of Rules and breach them, there are consequences.


Yes, supporters of homofascism keep flip flopping between redefining freedom of speech to mean freedom from free speech, and
turning Folau's sacking into a technicality.


Of course, it is a technicality but no more or less than any other breach of contract is a technicality which gives rise to rights and consequences.  Why are you bending the Rules on this occasion?  Roolz is Roolz yes?


It is also an attack on freedom of speech.


What is?

Maybe the reality is this.  Someone signs a Contract...then breaches its terms and he does not like the outcome of his own breach.  So he becomes a 'whiny little bitch.'


Most employment contracts these days contain vague clauses like the one used to fire Folau.



Don't like it, don't sign it.


So far every occasion in which someone was fired like Folau was, they mounted a legal challenge and got paid out. Folau is most likely in line for a big payout. That's because illegal contract clauses cannot be enforced, even if you sign them. Not sure why we need to go over this. It has been done to death already.
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freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #46 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:04pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:02pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:01pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 12:00pm:
Losing your job is not the same as being banned from an internet forum. One is demonstrable harm, the other is being a whiny little bitch.



Maybe if you pay me $4m per annum to post here, that'll help clarify things for you? Cheesy

Both are breaching the rules they agreed to. The bigger the reward, the bigger the consequences.



One consequence is an attack on freedom of speech. One isn't. You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website.


Explain that.  Dumb it down for me, Effendi.


That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #47 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 10:08am:
You are missing the point cods. It does not matter whether you think it is proper religion or not. I pointed out it is merely his opinion to show that he did no demonstrable harm.


he's vilifying homos whilst hiding behind the cloak of religion. Just another god gobber spruiking their god gobbing muck Sad And according to his own beliefs he is going to hell for hoarding material possessions and wealth instead of selling everything and giving to the poor. Same with the church and the other bible thumpers that all of a sudden has all of this spare money to help him fight his case. What were they doing sitting on this money when it should have been given to the needy according to Jesus's own teachings ?

All religious instruction is bullshit and should be discouraged.


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« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:20pm by Sir lastnail »  

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John Smith
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #48 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:07pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:05pm:
So far every occasion in which someone was fired like Folau was, they mounted a legal challenge and got paid out. Folau is most likely in line for a big payout. That's because illegal contract clauses cannot be enforced, even if you sign them. Not sure why we need to go over this. It has been done to death already.



I doubt it. I haven't seen one case of someone being sacked for posting something on social media and it being overturned. Every single case I have seen the courts have upheld the decision of the employer.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #49 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #50 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:16pm
 
Quote:
So you would accept being fired for thinking homosexuality is acceptable?


No, I wouldn't.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #51 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:18pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.


Or another point.  FD asserts I have freedom of speech but not freedom to choose where I exercise that freedom.....ie here.

Hmmmmm...remarkable and exact similarity with Folau's position, yes Effendi?
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #52 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:19pm
 


Rugby Australia says it is keen to create an environment in which everyone can feel “safe and welcome” and in which there is “no vilification based on race, gender, religion or sexuality”. And so, because of his Instagram post, Folau had to be cast out.

It is testament to the blinkered arrogance of political correctness, and of those who do its bidding, that these people could not see the profound moral contradiction at the heart of their chilling statement. In the name of preventing “vilification based on race, gender, religion or sexuality”, they vilified Folau on the basis of his religion. In the name of creating a safe environment where everyone can feel “welcome”, they made it clear that Folau — because of his religion — is not welcome.

This Orwellian statement translates as follows: “We will not tolerate vilification on the basis of religion — unless your religion is traditional Christianity, in which case we will vilify you. And we are welcoming of everyone — except people who believe the words of the Bible, whom we will sack and shame.”

This repugnant statement summed up what is the first and last commandment of the ideology of political correctness: “We love and accept everyone. Except anyone we disagree with. We hate those people and we will destroy them.”
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/no-forgiveness-for-folaus-sins-against-the-pc-church/news-story/d45429de7319fb5fe74ad5feaa269a15

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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #53 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:33pm
 
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:07pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:05pm:
So far every occasion in which someone was fired like Folau was, they mounted a legal challenge and got paid out. Folau is most likely in line for a big payout. That's because illegal contract clauses cannot be enforced, even if you sign them. Not sure why we need to go over this. It has been done to death already.



I doubt it. I haven't seen one case of someone being sacked for posting something on social media and it being overturned. Every single case I have seen the courts have upheld the decision of the employer.


https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/one-unresolved-legal-question-at-the-heart-of-israel-folaus-case/news-story/387b057b25ab325d35ea494b9ed087b3

Many businesses have similar codes of conduct; there is a good chance you agreed to follow one when you signed your own employment contract.

The thing that makes this case unique is also a central part of Folau’s counterargument — his religion.

That conflict, between an employer’s right to impose standards of conduct on its workers and an employee’s right to religious expression, has never been properly tested in court.

There simply isn’t a precedent to tell us how far Folau’s rights go in this scenario.

“We don’t really have any case law specifically dealing with it, so the question for the court is going to be: is it encompassed within the protection of religion that a person is therefore able to say whatever they think, or quote from the Bible in any way that they like, publicly, in the way that he has done here?” Prof Forsyth said.

“Folau argues he’s compelled by being a Christian of the kind that he is, I’m compelled to preach the word of the Bible and the world of the Lord. That’s part and parcel of my practising of my religion.

“And unfortunately we just don’t know from case law, because there haven’t been cases on this, whether the right to practise your religion extends that far.”

You might recall the case of former SBS sport reporter Scott McIntyre, who was fired after posting a series of controversial tweets about Anzac Day in 2015.

McIntyre claimed it was an unlawful termination before eventually settling — like so many others in the same situation.

“The problem is these cases keep settling, so we don’t get a decision,” Prof Forsyth said. “Us employment lawyers are desperate for a ruling.”

He said he was “almost as certain as I can be” that Folau and Rugby Australia would end up settling as well.

“Obviously these settlements are always without any acceptance of liability and they’re confidential, but you’ve got to think about the commercial pressures they’re under,” he said of the sport’s governing body.

“How long would they want the circus to go on? From Rugby Australia’s point of view, they’re looking at the possibility of at least a few more months of this kind of publicity, and it’s not very good for their brand, so I think there are commercial reasons why they would want to settle it.

“And then there’s also, always in these cases there’s the risk they could lose. Which would be even more unhelpful. And he’s got a massive compensation claim.”

Folau is seeking $10 million in compensation, about half of which is for his lost salary, with the other half covering missed financial opportunities such as sponsorships.
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freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #54 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:38pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.


Or another point.  FD asserts I have freedom of speech but not freedom to choose where I exercise that freedom.....ie here.

Hmmmmm...remarkable and exact similarity with Folau's position, yes Effendi?


You are confused Aussie. You can choose to post your opinion on any website that will accept it.
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John Smith
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #55 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
https://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-life/one-unresolved-legal-question-at-the-heart-of-israel-folaus-case/news-story/387b057b25ab325d35ea494b9ed087b3

Many businesses have similar codes of conduct; there is a good chance you agreed to follow one when you signed your own employment contract.

The thing that makes this case unique is also a central part of Folau’s counterargument — his religion.

That conflict, between an employer’s right to impose standards of conduct on its workers and an employee’s right to religious expression, has never been properly tested in court.

There simply isn’t a precedent to tell us how far Folau’s rights go in this scenario.

“We don’t really have any case law specifically dealing with it, so the question for the court is going to be: is it encompassed within the protection of religion that a person is therefore able to say whatever they think, or quote from the Bible in any way that they like, publicly, in the way that he has done here?” Prof Forsyth said.

“Folau argues he’s compelled by being a Christian of the kind that he is, I’m compelled to preach the word of the Bible and the world of the Lord. That’s part and parcel of my practising of my religion.

“And unfortunately we just don’t know from case law, because there haven’t been cases on this, whether the right to practise your religion extends that far.”

You might recall the case of former SBS sport reporter Scott McIntyre, who was fired after posting a series of controversial tweets about Anzac Day in 2015.

McIntyre claimed it was an unlawful termination before eventually settling — like so many others in the same situation.

“The problem is these cases keep settling, so we don’t get a decision,” Prof Forsyth said. “Us employment lawyers are desperate for a ruling.”

He said he was “almost as certain as I can be” that Folau and Rugby Australia would end up settling as well.

“Obviously these settlements are always without any acceptance of liability and they’re confidential, but you’ve got to think about the commercial pressures they’re under,” he said of the sport’s governing body.

“How long would they want the circus to go on? From Rugby Australia’s point of view, they’re looking at the possibility of at least a few more months of this kind of publicity, and it’s not very good for their brand, so I think there are commercial reasons why they would want to settle it.

“And then there’s also, always in these cases there’s the risk they could lose. Which would be even more unhelpful. And he’s got a massive compensation claim.”

Folau is seeking $10 million in compensation, about half of which is for his lost salary, with the other half covering missed financial opportunities such as sponsorships.





so it has never been tested in court.

I guess they're going to test it soon enough then. I doubt folau is going to win but we'll have to wait and see.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #56 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:47pm
 
The author suggests RA is far more likely to pay Folau out than go to court. This is supported by all the attempts at backpedalling we see - RA trying to shift blame to the sponsors, including the government, Alan Joyce's feeble attempt to disown the sacking, etc. And precedent.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #57 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.


Or another point.  FD asserts I have freedom of speech but not freedom to choose where I exercise that freedom.....ie here.

Hmmmmm...remarkable and exact similarity with Folau's position, yes Effendi?


You are confused Aussie. You can choose to post your opinion on any website that will accept it.


Not me who is 'confused' Effendi.  That is always your fall-back default position when you know you are cornered.

If I have an absolute right to freedom of speech that implicitly demands I have an absolute right to exercise that freedom wherever I choose.
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freediver
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #58 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:08pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:56pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.


Or another point.  FD asserts I have freedom of speech but not freedom to choose where I exercise that freedom.....ie here.

Hmmmmm...remarkable and exact similarity with Folau's position, yes Effendi?


You are confused Aussie. You can choose to post your opinion on any website that will accept it.


Not me who is 'confused' Effendi.  That is always your fall-back default position when you know you are cornered.

If I have an absolute right to freedom of speech that implicitly demands I have an absolute right to exercise that freedom wherever I choose.


Nothing is absolute Aussie. Your freedom of speech is not infringed because your neighbour won't let you into their house to preach your idiocy to them.

I keep falling back on this because you and John keep making the same idiotic mistake.
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Re: freedom from religion
Reply #59 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:08pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:56pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
Aussie wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
John Smith wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
That's not possible Aussie.

You do not have a fundamental human right to post on this website. Banning you does not violate any rights.



and folau has no fundamental human right to play rugby for RA. Sacking him does not violate his human rights.


Or another point.  FD asserts I have freedom of speech but not freedom to choose where I exercise that freedom.....ie here.

Hmmmmm...remarkable and exact similarity with Folau's position, yes Effendi?


You are confused Aussie. You can choose to post your opinion on any website that will accept it.


Not me who is 'confused' Effendi.  That is always your fall-back default position when you know you are cornered.

If I have an absolute right to freedom of speech that implicitly demands I have an absolute right to exercise that freedom wherever I choose.


Nothing is absolute Aussie. Your freedom of speech is not infringed because your neighbour won't let you into their house to preach your idiocy to them.

I keep falling back on this because you and John keep making the same idiotic mistake.


Exactly.  But you seek to insist that in Folau's case...it is.  (Your neighbour analogy is pure crap.

You invite people here [as opposed to the neighbour who has not invited me there] and I sign up to your Roolz to curtail my 'freedom' according to your Roolz).
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