Australian Politics Forum - 4 corners tonight

lee

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #45 - Jul 9^th, 2019 at 9:51pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Your mates were getting paid to dry up the river. That's what was drying up the river

The river has dried many times. Even before irrigation was big. How do you explain that? You just like to make sch!t up.

I have no mates over the eastern states. You are just deluded and bitter.

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Bam

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #46 - Jul 9^th, 2019 at 10:31pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 8^th, 2019 at 11:58pm:

... and all of this denies the simple reality of rising salinity due to irrigation, and the absolute devastation of the lower Murray ....

BTW - if water is not permitted to 'run off' it will not return to the water courses..... so building mega dams might help the farmer - it will destroy the basis of his livelihood, the river system, and will lead to reliance on floods to fill the dams...meanwhile the water retained in the few short feet underground will rise and bring salinity with it... and will not wash down to the river(s) and then the ocean...... the mouth of the Murray will remain closed and the salinity desert will grow...

This was hinted at in two separate segments of that program -the part that dealt with 'big dams - no rain' and the later bit about 'let's all build big dams' .... no rain - no water... no dams .... just waste lots of ground...

This is why we shouldn't have river systems managed by dryland farmers with no understanding of hydrology.

Rainwater has salt in it. Not much, to be sure, but it's there. When the rain falls over the land, it drops that salt over the land. The salt needs to find its way to a river so it can return to the sea, or to an inland basin like Lake Eyre. A lot of salt doesn't due to evaporation. It accumulates in groundwater, which is why a lot of groundwater in Australia is saline. Floods can help to flush the salt out, but if the salt doesn't get flushed out it is going to accumulate.

Irrigation is also bad for salt in the soil. It brings the salt in the groundwater to the surface, or adds more salt because that irrigation water from the river is also saline. The degradation isn't quick but reversing the degradation also takes a long time.

This is why building dams to trap flood waters is a very bad idea. It is going to spread salt, and over time the degradation will make that farmland worthless. And the ones who have taken that water for short-term benefits will not be paying for the remediation. Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #47 - Jul 9^th, 2019 at 11:51pm

Bam wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 10:31pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 8^th, 2019 at 11:58pm:

... and all of this denies the simple reality of rising salinity due to irrigation, and the absolute devastation of the lower Murray ....

BTW - if water is not permitted to 'run off' it will not return to the water courses..... so building mega dams might help the farmer - it will destroy the basis of his livelihood, the river system, and will lead to reliance on floods to fill the dams...meanwhile the water retained in the few short feet underground will rise and bring salinity with it... and will not wash down to the river(s) and then the ocean...... the mouth of the Murray will remain closed and the salinity desert will grow...

This was hinted at in two separate segments of that program -the part that dealt with 'big dams - no rain' and the later bit about 'let's all build big dams' .... no rain - no water... no dams .... just waste lots of ground...

This is why we shouldn't have river systems managed by dryland farmers with no understanding of hydrology.

Rainwater has salt in it. Not much, to be sure, but it's there. When the rain falls over the land, it drops that salt over the land. The salt needs to find its way to a river so it can return to the sea, or to an inland basin like Lake Eyre. A lot of salt doesn't due to evaporation. It accumulates in groundwater, which is why a lot of groundwater in Australia is saline. Floods can help to flush the salt out, but if the salt doesn't get flushed out it is going to accumulate.

Irrigation is also bad for salt in the soil. It brings the salt in the groundwater to the surface, or adds more salt because that irrigation water from the river is also saline. The degradation isn't quick but reversing the degradation also takes a long time.

This is why building dams to trap flood waters is a very bad idea. It is going to spread salt, and over time the degradation will make that farmland worthless. And the ones who have taken that water for short-term benefits will not be paying for the remediation. Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.

Well put.

What concerns me most is the 'business model' that allows unchecked buying of water (at auction, so same as serial house hoarders v prospective home owners), and the making of profit from those licences bought.

Simple to fix - you buy - you use - no use - forfeit.

It was fascinating to see that a bloke on the Murrumbidgee bought water rights from the cheaper Murray and then sold those on to make a profit...

WTF? You buy to use - not to sell for profit... that's a pretty simple rule, and the fact that the government itself has allowed the growth of this kind of 'business' dealing shows that they have no conscience about throwing $13 Bn at water, to end up in the pockets of the cunning, the greedy, and the already rich.... ALL of whom will subvert most of it into non-tax paying areas of activity... including blatantly offshoring it.

How in god's name do you reduce water usage by simply encouraging the transfer of masses of taxpayer's money via buying and selling the 'right' to use water? That's like Reg having the right to have babies, but not actually having babies, and the taxpayer paying for the babies Reg doesn't have. Reduced to its bottom line with all engaged in this practice - zero change would occur = no 'water savings" at huge expense, and what that means is that those who buy water rights to actually use them are going to end up with nothing through being sucked dry competing with parasites.

A Third World Banana Republic couldn't do it better, and it has all the hallmarks of the same kind of 'business'!

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« Last Edit: Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:02am by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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philperth2010 Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 20095 Perth Gender:	Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam Reply #48 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 9:25am Billions wasted by the Coalition with no positive outcomes for the environment....This will only get worse whilst this bible bashing clown infects Parliament with his jingoism!!!
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Sir lastnail

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #49 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:01am

lee wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 9:51pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 9:46pm:

Your mates were getting paid to dry up the river. That's what was drying up the river

The river has dried many times. Even before irrigation was big. How do you explain that? You just like to make sch!t up.

I have no mates over the eastern states. You are just deluded and bitter.

It's permanently dry now thanks to your crooked mates and their hare brain water saving ideas Sad

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #50 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 12:00pm

.. it is not beyond the realm of consideration that the ultimate aim is to drive the smaller farmer out and replace him/her with agribusiness - which we all know already will not benefit this nation and will hardly pay its way in any way ...

There must be plenty of brown paper bags doing the rounds.... future job offers on offer......donations galore....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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lee

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #51 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 1:03pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 11:01am:

It's permanently dry now thanks to your crooked mates and their hare brain water saving ideas

Really? it will not rain again? It will not run again? You have this on whose authority? God's?

I don't have any mates over east and I don't have any crooked mates. If you think you know some, name them. And if you think I have political mates you are really, really confused or worse.

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Redmond Neck

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #52 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 1:17pm

Redmond Neck wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 7:27pm:

Redmond Neck wrote on Jul 9^th, 2019 at 4:45pm:

PETITION

To our Political Leaders

The systemic mismanagement and maladministration of the Murray Darling Basin Plan needs to stop. Australia’s water resources need to be managed in the public interest, not for the benefit of corporations and lobbyists.

We need a Royal Commission into the management of our greatest rivers.

https://nb.tai.org.au/mdbroyalcommission

Yep!

yep

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BAN ALL THESE ABO SITES RECOGNITIONS.

ALL AUSTRALIA IS FOR ALL AUSTRALIANS!

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83701 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam Reply #53 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 2:19pm I would also remind you that Labor, in the guise of St Penny of the Wong, bought into this scheme as well.....
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17277 Gender:	Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam Reply #54 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 2:27pm They don't like to be reminded of that.
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philperth2010 Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 20095 Perth Gender:	Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam Reply #55 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 2:38pm Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 2:19pm: I would also remind you that Labor, in the guise of St Penny of the Wong, bought into this scheme as well..... Cool....Post a link....I would like to see what Wong has done???
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lee

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #56 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 3:34pm

"For the Kahlbetzer family there will only ever be one Penny Wong . When the federal Water Minister needed a big deal to trumpet the government’s commitment to the Murray-Darling Basin, the family’s Twynam Pastoral Company was a willing seller.

What followed was the largest water trade in Australian history, a $303 million deal that was supposedly a win for taxpayers and the environment."

https://www.afr.com/news/politics/penny-s-from-heaven-for-water-sellers-20100330...

paywalled

"In 2009, Senator the Hon Penny Wong, then Minister for Climate Change and Water, made the Water Market Rules (WMR) and Water Charge (Termination Fees) Rules (WCTFR).1 In 2010, the Hon Tony Burke MP, Minister for Sustainability, Environment, Water, Population and Communities, made the Water Charge (Infrastructure) Rules (WCIR) and the Water Charge (Planning and Management Information) Rules (WCPMIR) (collectively, the Rules).2 Compliance with the rules is monitored and enforced by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC). Minister Burke made minor amendments to the WCTFR in February 2011 and further amendments to the WCTFR and the WMR in October 2012."

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/ACCC%20Article%20in%20the%20SA%20Law%20Soci...

"Penny Wong (SA, Australian Labor Party, Leader of the Opposition in the Senate) Share this | Link to this | Hansard source

I rise to speak on behalf of the Labor Party on this disallowance motion and make clear that Labor will be voting to disallow this instrument. We do so because we support the plan; in fact, we're the party that delivered the plan. It was Labor that delivered the Murray-Darling Basin Plan in government and it is Labor that will fight today to save that plan—the whole plan, the entire plan—for all Australians."

"I would make this point, notwithstanding that very impassioned speech by Senator Hanson-Young: the one party that has not supported the plan, and did not support it when we implemented it in government, is the Greens. They didn't support the plan at the time and, I have to say on this, have been happy to grandstand but have never delivered a single drop to the River Murray. When Senator Hanson-Young goes out in the media and calls on me and other Labor Party senators to stand firm on the River Murray, I would remind people listening that the Greens didn't support the plan and they've never delivered a single drop of water. They continue to lecture me and others in this place about the need to enforce a plan they have never supported. I tell you who did deliver the water, and that is the Labor government. I am proud that as water minister in that government between 2007 and 2010 I secured almost a thousand gigalitres of water for the river, something for which I have been criticised, to this day, by the National Party and various irrigation communities, perhaps even by you, Mr Acting Deputy President Williams—as you're entitled to do, but I do make that point. It was something that was hard fought and remains hard fought."

https://www.openaustralia.org.au/senate/?id=2018-02-14.247.2

responding to SHY who said -

"Despite all of this, we have a regulation before us in this place that suggests the Murray-Darling Basin Plan should be amended to take more water out of the river, to take more water off the environment and to hand it to big corporate irrigators upstream."

So Penny Wong, on behalf of the Labor Party supported the move to take more water and was against the Green's motion.

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philperth2010

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #57 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 5:59pm

So what did Penny Wong do that was so bad....Securing almost a thousand gigalitres of water for the river is a good outcome....4 Corners exposed the way the system has been corrupted by vested interests and poor management....The Coalition own this mess???

This from Cory Bernardi....

Quote:

I also happen to agree with Senator Wong about the problems with the Deputy Prime Minister being in charge of the water portfolio. I think there was enormous compromise there. I respect the fact that many people say the new minister is committed. I've had meetings with him, and he's been committed to this program. But my confidence in the new minister was undermined when, shamefully, he decided to put out a press release calling upon a party member of mine, who happens to be in Queensland, to 'stand up for Queensland'. A member of a political party has been told to stand up against this South Australian-centric politician who's here representing the interests of the state and trying to balance it across the whole thing. And the minister said, 'The people in Queensland would be worse off as a result of this disallowance today.'

Where it falls on shamefully hollow ground is the fact that the minister himself is related to one of the people in Queensland who have been accused of rorting the water systems themselves. They've been raided. It doesn't matter whether Mr Norman is the brother-in-law, as reported, or the wife's second cousin. There is a direct link with someone who has been rorting the water system or is alleged to have been, whose farms have been raided by the Federal Police, who has been accused of building 'roads'—in those quotation marks again—that just happen to store piles of water from the flood plains and prevent it getting down the river. The fact that this wasn't disclosed, except by the ABC, and I had to start digging through it and find out about it in recent times is extraordinary.

https://www.openaustralia.org.au/senate/?id=2018-02-14.247.2

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« Last Edit: Jul 10^th, 2019 at 6:11pm by philperth2010 »

If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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Dnarever

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #58 - Jul 10^th, 2019 at 7:37pm

I always had a good laugh every election when on day one Howard would open the Liberal election play book and look read out announcement number 1. We are going to fix the Murray river system.

apparently they fixed it 4 times. One of the times they spent money to fix it they even forgot to spend the money.

Point 2 in the play book was pretend to be good economic managers.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: 4 corners tonight - Another LNP water scam
Reply #59 - Jul 11^th, 2019 at 12:23am

philperth2010 wrote on Jul 10^th, 2019 at 5:59pm:

So what did Penny Wong do that was so bad....Securing almost a thousand gigalitres of water for the river is a good outcome....4 Corners exposed the way the system has been corrupted by vested interests and poor management....The Coalition own this mess???

This from Cory Bernardi....

Quote:

I also happen to agree with Senator Wong about the problems with the Deputy Prime Minister being in charge of the water portfolio. I think there was enormous compromise there. I respect the fact that many people say the new minister is committed. I've had meetings with him, and he's been committed to this program. But my confidence in the new minister was undermined when, shamefully, he decided to put out a press release calling upon a party member of mine, who happens to be in Queensland, to 'stand up for Queensland'. A member of a political party has been told to stand up against this South Australian-centric politician who's here representing the interests of the state and trying to balance it across the whole thing. And the minister said, 'The people in Queensland would be worse off as a result of this disallowance today.'

Where it falls on shamefully hollow ground is the fact that the minister himself is related to one of the people in Queensland who have been accused of rorting the water systems themselves. They've been raided. It doesn't matter whether Mr Norman is the brother-in-law, as reported, or the wife's second cousin. There is a direct link with someone who has been rorting the water system or is alleged to have been, whose farms have been raided by the Federal Police, who has been accused of building 'roads'—in those quotation marks again—that just happen to store piles of water from the flood plains and prevent it getting down the river. The fact that this wasn't disclosed, except by the ABC, and I had to start digging through it and find out about it in recent times is extraordinary.

https://www.openaustralia.org.au/senate/?id=2018-02-14.247.2

"Securing almost a thousand gigalitres of water"

... that then went into the open market via auction and then entered the same scenario that we are now seeing....

Hello - Western Australia with no idea...

You racist bastard ........ prick.. gullywhumper ... low life ... know-nothing dickhead in a council flat with a basement where you live under your mother's rent.....

How do YOU like it when people give it back to you, turkey?

Do you actually have a life?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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