Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Should we socialise childcare? (Read 1312 times)
crocodile
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 6683
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #15 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 6:23pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
minarchist wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:44am:
No rebates or subsidies to any private company should result in companies competing against one another to offer the best prices, therefore eliminating the need to nationalise anything.

If child care prices have only risen since subsidies have been introduced, the logical thing to do would be to eliminate all subsidies and lower taxes accordingly. Reducing regulations in the sector and making it easier for Au Pairs to be sourced from South East Asia should reduce prices overall.

Meanwhile, reducing or eliminating tax deductions on investment properties, as well as offering tax incentives to individuals who move to areas with a population of less than 200,000 and more than 150 km from Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney, should stagnate prices in the housing sector. This would reduce the need for some families for both partners to work and thus reduce or eliminate the need for childcare in the first place.


This below in regard to your amazing belief in pure market forces..... haven't worked yet and never will, and it's all theory ... continue your education...

Oh - so you want those who can afford them to be able to access Au Pairs on the taxpayer dime?  Pure market forces my arse.... you mean only for the proletariat .... they can take market forces up the kazoo but the well-off must receive help to get Au Pairs and so forth...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

You're on the autism scale somewhere, aren't you?

Couldn't get a more perfect example of market forces in action with the price rises post subsidy. Continue your education.
Back to top
 

Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.
 
IP Logged
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 83774
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #16 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 6:53pm
 
crocodile wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
minarchist wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:44am:
No rebates or subsidies to any private company should result in companies competing against one another to offer the best prices, therefore eliminating the need to nationalise anything.

If child care prices have only risen since subsidies have been introduced, the logical thing to do would be to eliminate all subsidies and lower taxes accordingly. Reducing regulations in the sector and making it easier for Au Pairs to be sourced from South East Asia should reduce prices overall.

Meanwhile, reducing or eliminating tax deductions on investment properties, as well as offering tax incentives to individuals who move to areas with a population of less than 200,000 and more than 150 km from Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney, should stagnate prices in the housing sector. This would reduce the need for some families for both partners to work and thus reduce or eliminate the need for childcare in the first place.


This below in regard to your amazing belief in pure market forces..... haven't worked yet and never will, and it's all theory ... continue your education...

Oh - so you want those who can afford them to be able to access Au Pairs on the taxpayer dime?  Pure market forces my arse.... you mean only for the proletariat .... they can take market forces up the kazoo but the well-off must receive help to get Au Pairs and so forth...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

You're on the autism scale somewhere, aren't you?

Couldn't get a more perfect example of market forces in action with the price rises post subsidy. Continue your education.


Not the subject matter I discussed - and this is not PURE market forces - this is socialised market forces... whereas the boy thinks that pure market forces are the answer to everything... continue your education...

You are off his issue...
Back to top
 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
rhino
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17179
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #17 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 7:24pm
 
Auggie wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 5:51pm:
rhino wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:22pm:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:00pm:
rhino wrote on Oct 14th, 2019 at 8:45pm:
The only child care which should be subsidised is that by the actual parent(s) of the child. Look after your own kids.


I tend towards the view that genuine cases - single parents - should receive full subsidy.  What I don't see is the necessity to provide childcare subsidy for everyone.. well - everyone except the proven well-off.. if you can catch them - apparently many well-off life on nothing but fresh air when it comes to declared income..
I wouldn't be against actually paying one partner a subsidy to stay home and look after their own children, in the long run far fewer social issues. even a tax concession, we need to get away from this current madness of pretending child care centres can raise children, its not working.


The issue is that we want to encourage people to work,
why?  Quote:
Such a policy would be skewed heavily against women.
Skewed against? Dont have children, problem solved.
Quote:
The idea of having a strong childcare system is that both parents can work full-time.
No kidding einstein. You arent following this too well are you?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
barryfromthebush
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 702
Bum Chum
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #18 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 7:33pm
 
Auggie wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 5:49pm:
minarchist wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:44am:
No rebates or subsidies to any private company should result in companies competing against one another to offer the best prices, therefore eliminating the need to nationalise anything.

If child care prices have only risen since subsidies have been introduced, the logical thing to do would be to eliminate all subsidies and lower taxes accordingly. Reducing regulations in the sector and making it easier for Au Pairs to be sourced from South East Asia should reduce prices overall.

Meanwhile, reducing or eliminating tax deductions on investment properties, as well as offering tax incentives to individuals who move to areas with a population of less than 200,000 and more than 150 km from Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney, should stagnate prices in the housing sector. This would reduce the need for some families for both partners to work and thus reduce or eliminate the need for childcare in the first place.


I wouldn't want an au pair from SE Asia looking after my kids....

The reason why competition doesn't work in childcare is because it's an essential service. Private providers will increase prices to serve only the well-off and rich, leaving lower income families in the lurch.

The best way to eliminate competition by having the government take it over, thereby controlling prices and running the service with the public interest in mind.


That could be said of many essential services such at commuter trains, electricity, water, gas. once you privatise and make it for profit rather than for the public good services goes down the drain and price goes up.
Back to top
 

Bumblywumbly
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 48833
At my desk.
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #19 - Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:12pm
 
Auggie wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 5:46pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
Auggie wrote on Oct 14th, 2019 at 8:28pm:
Government rebates to private companies results only in those companies raising prices. Ultimately, the only way to control prices is to nationalise (take over) child care.


So you think government interference in the sector is so bad that there should be more of it?


I don't think that tax payers dollars should go toward private companies to provide essential services.


Are you backpedaling or missing the point?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
minarchist
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 529
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #20 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 2:16am
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
minarchist wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:44am:
No rebates or subsidies to any private company should result in companies competing against one another to offer the best prices, therefore eliminating the need to nationalise anything.

If child care prices have only risen since subsidies have been introduced, the logical thing to do would be to eliminate all subsidies and lower taxes accordingly. Reducing regulations in the sector and making it easier for Au Pairs to be sourced from South East Asia should reduce prices overall.

Meanwhile, reducing or eliminating tax deductions on investment properties, as well as offering tax incentives to individuals who move to areas with a population of less than 200,000 and more than 150 km from Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney, should stagnate prices in the housing sector. This would reduce the need for some families for both partners to work and thus reduce or eliminate the need for childcare in the first place.


This below in regard to your amazing belief in pure market forces..... haven't worked yet and never will, and it's all theory ... continue your education...

Oh - so you want those who can afford them to be able to access Au Pairs on the taxpayer dime?  Pure market forces my arse.... you mean only for the proletariat .... they can take market forces up the kazoo but the well-off must receive help to get Au Pairs and so forth...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes


Where in my post did I suggest that Au Pairs should be funded by the taxpayer? Why would I make such a suggestion if I'm suggesting that we should eliminate childcare subsidies, which you are mostly in agreement with except for certain members of the community?

I don't know how familiar you are with how Au Pairs work, but provided that you follow the government's requirements you can hire an individual from overseas to work for you for a minimum of $8 per hour to look after your children. In exchange, you have to at least provide them with a free room, free food and access to amenities, with most providing additional benefits such as free wifi, a TV and DVD player for their room, access to a vehicle on days off, etc. Most people with go through an agency to ensure that the government requirements are met. Child care subsidies cannot be used to pay for an Au Pair.

Au Pairs are just not being used by the Upper Class, they are being used by working class families who find the cost of child care too expensive and find that Au Pairs are on par or cheaper than child care. Most Au Pairs are sourced from European countries, I can't recall the exact reasons but I do know that the Au Pair needs to have valid health insurance in place and a minimum amount of cash in their bank accounts ($5000 I believe) before they can come to Australia. If the cash requirements were lowered, more Au Pairs could be sourced from Asian countries.

While I agree that the free market should work in most circumstances, I recognise that in others it can't be expected to work with any benefit. I'm suggesting that we eliminate child care subsidies as the cost of child care costs didn't seem to be an issue prior to the 1990s when subsidies were first introduced. Granted, there were other factors in place that didn't require child care unless there was no other choice, eg most people had family, friends or neighbours within a short distance they could rely on for little or no cost to look after their kids while they were at work.

Quote:
You're on the autism scale somewhere, aren't you?


I think you'll find that there are no peer reviewed papers demonstrating a link between Autism and a belief in free market economics. However, there are plenty of examples of nations that go down the toilet when they reject most of the principles of free market economics.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2019 at 2:28am by minarchist »  

People accuse Capitalism of being a "dog eat dog" system, yet it was the Communists who ate each other when they were starving!
 
IP Logged
 
juliar
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 22966
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #21 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 8:33am
 
Socialism always goes rotten as it is SO inefficient and costs 5 times as much.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Auggie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


The Bull Moose

Posts: 8571
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #22 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 5:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:12pm:
Auggie wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 5:46pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 14th, 2019 at 9:22pm:
Auggie wrote on Oct 14th, 2019 at 8:28pm:
Government rebates to private companies results only in those companies raising prices. Ultimately, the only way to control prices is to nationalise (take over) child care.


So you think government interference in the sector is so bad that there should be more of it?


I don't think that tax payers dollars should go toward private companies to provide essential services.


Are you backpedaling or missing the point?


Clearly missing the point. So, why don't you elaborate?
Back to top
 

The Progressive President
 
IP Logged
 
rhino
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 17179
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #23 - Oct 16th, 2019 at 10:07pm
 
juliar wrote on Oct 16th, 2019 at 8:33am:
Socialism always goes rotten as it is SO inefficient and costs 5 times as much.
Thats bulldust, privatisation of services leads to increased costs in every case.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 83774
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #24 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 12:39am
 
rhino wrote on Oct 16th, 2019 at 10:07pm:
juliar wrote on Oct 16th, 2019 at 8:33am:
Socialism always goes rotten as it is SO inefficient and costs 5 times as much.
Thats bulldust, privatisation of services leads to increased costs in every case.



Absolutely ... if I left my car with a mechanic for service, and came back to find he's put in an engine/transmission/computer system that cost me three times as much to run for no benefit .... I'd rightly sue him.... and would win any and every day of the week....
Back to top
 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 83774
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #25 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 12:47am
 
minarchist wrote on Oct 16th, 2019 at 2:16am:
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:02pm:
minarchist wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 1:44am:
No rebates or subsidies to any private company should result in companies competing against one another to offer the best prices, therefore eliminating the need to nationalise anything.

If child care prices have only risen since subsidies have been introduced, the logical thing to do would be to eliminate all subsidies and lower taxes accordingly. Reducing regulations in the sector and making it easier for Au Pairs to be sourced from South East Asia should reduce prices overall.

Meanwhile, reducing or eliminating tax deductions on investment properties, as well as offering tax incentives to individuals who move to areas with a population of less than 200,000 and more than 150 km from Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney, should stagnate prices in the housing sector. This would reduce the need for some families for both partners to work and thus reduce or eliminate the need for childcare in the first place.


This below in regard to your amazing belief in pure market forces..... haven't worked yet and never will, and it's all theory ... continue your education...

Oh - so you want those who can afford them to be able to access Au Pairs on the taxpayer dime?  Pure market forces my arse.... you mean only for the proletariat .... they can take market forces up the kazoo but the well-off must receive help to get Au Pairs and so forth...   Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes


Where in my post did I suggest that Au Pairs should be funded by the taxpayer? Why would I make such a suggestion if I'm suggesting that we should eliminate childcare subsidies, which you are mostly in agreement with except for certain members of the community?

I don't know how familiar you are with how Au Pairs work, but provided that you follow the government's requirements you can hire an individual from overseas to work for you for a minimum of $8 per hour to look after your children. In exchange, you have to at least provide them with a free room, free food and access to amenities, with most providing additional benefits such as free wifi, a TV and DVD player for their room, access to a vehicle on days off, etc. Most people with go through an agency to ensure that the government requirements are met. Child care subsidies cannot be used to pay for an Au Pair.

Au Pairs are just not being used by the Upper Class, they are being used by working class families who find the cost of child care too expensive and find that Au Pairs are on par or cheaper than child care. Most Au Pairs are sourced from European countries, I can't recall the exact reasons but I do know that the Au Pair needs to have valid health insurance in place and a minimum amount of cash in their bank accounts ($5000 I believe) before they can come to Australia. If the cash requirements were lowered, more Au Pairs could be sourced from Asian countries.

While I agree that the free market should work in most circumstances, I recognise that in others it can't be expected to work with any benefit. I'm suggesting that we eliminate child care subsidies as the cost of child care costs didn't seem to be an issue prior to the 1990s when subsidies were first introduced. Granted, there were other factors in place that didn't require child care unless there was no other choice, eg most people had family, friends or neighbours within a short distance they could rely on for little or no cost to look after their kids while they were at work.

Quote:
You're on the autism scale somewhere, aren't you?


I think you'll find that there are no peer reviewed papers demonstrating a link between Autism and a belief in free market economics. However, there are plenty of examples of nations that go down the toilet when they reject most of the principles of free market economics.



Your inference that childcare subsidy was better replaced by the opportunity to import au Pairs.. that implies subsidy for Au Pairs.

So go ahead - if you can afford it - pay an Au Pair at the proper rates of pay..... therefore childcare for the majority would cease to exist.

I may have misread you - but you contributed to the misreading... you need to specify that Au Pairs would not be subsidised by government handout... however - they usually are anyway via income manipulation through companies and trusts.

Thus only the fat who can manipulate income would benefit... what about the single mother who needs a job and who Centrelink pursues with a vengeance these days?  Where is their Au Pair?

I think you need to get out of your limited theoretical view of the world... and see real life for the majority.

Again - all you are doing by suggesting 'easy access for Au Pairs' is benefit to the rich and none to anyone else = escalating social divides.....

Don't the rich get enough benefits already through income manip0ulation etc?

You're either autistic or a private school kid....  NFI....
Back to top
 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 83774
Proud pre-1850's NO Voter
Gender: male
Re: Should we socialise childcare?
Reply #26 - Oct 17th, 2019 at 12:53am
 
... AND you are advocating wage exploitation..... this is AUSTRALIA, chum - not farken India or Saudi Arabia .... you pay your wages correctly here, sonny - or face the lash...

Jesus God - that anyone could come out and publicly state blatant wage exploitation of foreign imports from depressed countries... where you bin, Laden, in the argument about Asians etc being  brought in to lower wages?

HTF do you seriously expect a working class family to employ anyone, unless on exploitationist rates of pay?  Are you joking?

How does someone with a family and bills and a mortgage pay someone else $8 an hour to mind the kids and find a room etc for them?

You're an autist, or a private school kid or a Liberal, aren't you?  NFD!
Back to top
 

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print