Australian Politics Forum - Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries

Brian Ross

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Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Dec 18^th, 2019 at 12:35pm

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Obeying the law in Non-Muslim countries
Abu Amina Elias July 15, 2013 Community الجماعةCovenants العهودHumanity الإنسانيةLeadership الإمامةManners الأدبMethodology المنهاجModeration الوسطيةObedience الطاعةPublic Welfare المصلحة

Quote:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Muslims who live in a non-Muslim country as citizens or who enter a non-Muslim country with a visa are obligated to fulfill this covenant of security which necessitates obeying the law. Even if a Muslim were to enter a country illegally, one cannot be excused for violating another person’s rights. It is a religious obligation for a Muslim to keep his promises, behave truthfully, and respect people’s natural rights.

Allah said:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَوْفُوا بِالْعُقُودِ

O you who believe, fulfill all contracts.

Surah Al-Ma’idah 5:1

And Allah said:

وَأَوْفُوا بِعَهْدِ اللَّهِ إِذَا عَاهَدتُّمْ وَلَا تَنقُضُوا الْأَيْمَانَ بَعْدَ تَوْكِيدِهَا وَقَدْ جَعَلْتُمُ اللَّهَ عَلَيْكُمْ كَفِيلًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَفْعَلُونَ

Fulfill the covenant of Allah when you have taken it, and do not break oaths after their confirmation while you have made Allah a witness over you. Verily, Allah knows what you do.

Surah An-Nahl 16:91

It is forbidden for a Muslim to betray anyone to whom he has given a pledge of security or a promise. Treachery is an enormous sin which results in severe punishment and humiliation in the Hereafter.

Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

إِذَا جَمَعَ اللَّهُ الأَوَّلِينَ وَالآخِرِينَ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرْفَعُ لِكُلِّ غَادِرٍ لِوَاءٌ فَقِيلَ هَذِهِ غَدْرَةُ فُلاَنِ بْنِ فُلاَنٍ

When Allah gathers the earlier and later generations on the Day of Resurrection, he will raise a banner for every treacherous person and it will be announced that this is the treachery of this person, the son of this person.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 5823, Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi

The general rule is that a Muslim should obey those in authority as long as they do not command us to commit sins.

Ibn Umar reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

السَّمْعُ وَالطَّاعَةُ حَقٌّ مَا لَمْ يُؤْمَرْ بِالْمَعْصِيَةِ فَإِذَا أُمِرَ بِمَعْصِيَةٍ فَلَا سَمْعَ وَلَا طَاعَةَ

Listening to and obeying the leader is an obligation as long as he does not command disobedience to Allah. If he commands disobedience, then there is no listening to him or obedience.

Source: Sahih Bukhari 2796, Grade: Sahih

In some cases, a Muslim may be required to participate in something controversial in Islam, such as purchasing mandatory insurance. In this case, according to the principle of choosing the lesser of two harms, a Muslim should follow the law according to the minimum requirements if the consequences of breaking the law would be worse for him and his community.

Therefore, we should obey the law of the land in which we live as a matter of upholding our citizenship or visa contract. We should not lie, betray, or defraud anyone, nor can we justify violating anyone’s rights because they are not Muslims.

Success comes from Allah, and Allah knows best.

[Source]

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moses

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #1 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 4:13pm

taqiyya and kitman: gaining the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them with deception, concealing and disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies..

lying is ordained for muslims, to conceal their true cause.

Quote:

qur'an 3.28: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.

qur'an 16.106: Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom.

qur'an 9.3: And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

qur'an 66.2: Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.

qur'an 2. 225: Allah does not impose blame upon you for what is unintentional in your oaths, but He imposes blame upon you for what your hearts have earned. And Allah is Forgiving and Forbearing.

muslims are encouraged to make false oaths, break their oaths and treaties, to lie and deceive non muslims.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #2 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:22pm

So which mosque are you preaching at brian?

The last census had over 30% stating they have no religion do you think you can convert any atheists to become muslim?

What does Islam say about atheists?
Quote:

Allah speaking-

Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe -

https://quran.com/8/55

I prefer the atheists like Al Razi from the golden age of atheism.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18320 Gender:	Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries Reply #3 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:23pm Of course many idiots claim Al Razi is a muslim.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #4 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:50pm

Gandalf has conceded Al Razi was an atheist no muslim will ever admit to the Quran being full of contradictions.

Quote:

Allah speaking-

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

https://quran.com/4/82

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 41077	Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries Reply #5 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:51pm Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:23pm: Of course many idiots claim Al Razi is a muslim. Interesting and yet he lived in a Muslim society...
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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18320 Gender:	Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries Reply #6 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:52pm Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:51pm: Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:23pm: Of course many idiots claim Al Razi is a muslim. Interesting and yet he lived in a Muslim society...
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Brian Ross

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #7 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:01pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:52pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:51pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:23pm:

Of course many idiots claim Al Razi is a muslim.

Interesting and yet he lived in a Muslim society...

Still doesn't answer how he lived in a Muslim society, Baron... Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Dec 18^th, 2019 at 10:12pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #8 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:10pm

Since brians link quotes Bukhari we should consider this.

Quote:

Chapter: He who makes peace between the people is not a liar

Narrated Um Kulthum bint `Uqba:

That she heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/53/3

Is this an example of inventing good information from muslims?

Quote:

Avicenna

Ibn Sina (Persian: ابن سینا‎), also known as Abu Ali Sina (ابوعلی سینا), Pur Sina (پورسینا), and often known in the west as Avicenna (/ˌævɪˈsɛnə, ˌɑːvɪ-/; c. 980 – June 1037) was a Persian[7][8][9] polymath who is regarded as one of the most significant physicians, astronomers, thinkers and writers of the Islamic Golden Age,[10] and the father of modern medicine.[11][12][13] Avicenna is also called "the most influential philosopher of the pre-modern era".[14
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avicenna

Muslims will tell you Ibn Sina was a great muslim scientist to talk up the non achievements of muslims which is really an example of inventing good information to make Islam appeal to non muslims.

Ibn Rushd another great thinker from the golden age of atheism said two truths cannot contradict each other.

So why do muslims and their apologists claim Ibn Sina was a muslim when many Islamic scholars have declared Ibn Sina was an atheist.

Is Al Ghazali one of the most influential muslims after $$Profit Mo, what did he say about Ibn Sina?

Quote:

Question
I heard Sheik Al-Huwayni say, in one of his tapes, that Ibn Sinna (Avicenna) was an atheist or Kafir. Was he really?

Answer
Ibn Sinna (Avicenna) was accused of being a Kafir and an atheist because of his statements about the antiquity of the world, his rejection of the Hereafter, and other atheist theories, in addition to his inner legendary ideology.
Other scholars stated that Ibn Sinna was an atheist before Sheikh Al-Huwaini did; amongst them is: Al-Ghazali, Ibn Taymiyah, Ibn Al-Qayim, and Al-Dhahabi.

Allah knows best.
https://www.islamweb.net/en/fatwa/87783/claims-about-ibn-sina-being-an-atheist-o...

The bullshit flows thick and fast with Islam it makes we wonder why people like brian who pretend to be atheist stick up for this ancient belief. Roll Eyes

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #9 - Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:13pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 9:01pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:52pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:51pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:23pm:

Of course many idiots claim Al Razi is a muslim.

Interesting and yet he lived in a Muslim society...

Still doesn't answer how he lived in a Muslim society, Baron... :roll

It does explain it ya dopey dim wit.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslims and obeying the law in Western Countries
Reply #10 - Dec 19^th, 2019 at 9:01am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 18^th, 2019 at 8:50pm:

Gandalf has conceded Al Razi was an atheist no muslim will ever admit to the Quran being full of contradictions.

Quote:

Allah speaking-

Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah, they would have found within it much contradiction.

https://quran.com/4/82

I don't know whether he was an atheist Baron, it would seem presumptive of me to be so sure of something like that.

What I do know however is that he was clearly sceptical of organized religion and claims of revelation - and critical of those who followed them.

What I also know is that you and almost everyone else here drone on and on ad-infinitum about how intolerant Islam is of those who criticise Islam and The Prophet, and how persecution and/or death most assuredly awaits anyone who engages in such criticism. Now you are telling me that far worse than a mere criticiser of Islam, Al Razi was in fact an atheist.

And yet, here we have an apparently "out and proud" atheist, brazenly criticising the Quran, the legitimacy of prophets (including, presumably Muhammad), and revealed religion in general. According to you, he must surely have faced the most brutal punishment right? So what happened Baron? Why was such a blasphemer allowed to prosper as a renouned writer and academic, winning plaudits from all over the caliphate, and living a ripe old age apparently untouched by any vengeful, butt hurt muslims?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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