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The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart (Read 3018 times)
aquascoot
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #15 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:41pm
 
0ktema wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:00pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 1:39pm:
So if this economic case is so strong, why is no-one here able to say what it is?



Did you happen to read the first post?

"Imagine a single policy that could boost our lacklustre economy by $4 billion, create an additional 12,000 jobs by 2021, disproportionately support regional and remote communities doing it tough with drought and bushfires, reduce inequality by benefiting the poorest fifth of Australians 28 times more than the richest, disproportionately support women, boost wages and corporate profits, and increase federal and state tax revenue by more than $1.25 billion."

"What the economy needs is more demand. While businesses have stopped investing and expanding, their profits are at record highs, the ASX200 has broken new ground, bond yields and interest rates are at record lows and share buybacks and dividend payouts are at unprecedented levels. The message from the data is clear: businesses are awash with cash, and can easily get more if they want it, but they will only invest and hire if there is demand for what they sell."






I've never been able to get my head around this idea that a consumer is valuable just by way of consuming.
A consumer must also create something of value and contribute so he has something to trade.

In what way is a bush tick ( a consumer  of my cattle s blood)  valuable to the cow.

It is surely just a parasitic relationship.


If I pay taxes and a centrelink recipient buys my beef stake with that money handed to him by a middleman ( canberra) I make no gain out of that deal.

If I sell my stake to a chinaman who makes me an iPhone, then that is the basis of a market economy.

If white knight wants to come and put up some fences, I am happy to provide him with a hearty meal.
If white knight wants to sit on a computer and " complain" why would I sacrifice a cow to his complaining.
In what way does the cow or my business benefit ?
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Bobby.
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #16 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:43pm
 
Aqua should start up a business like Tony Robbins -
with his motivation speeches.


...
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aquascoot
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #17 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:54pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:43pm:
Aqua should start up a business like Tony Robbins -
with his motivation speeches.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Tony_Robbins.jpg/220px...



Tony started off pretty broke.
So did Oprah.
Pregnant to a relative at 14 and in a psych hospital, then homeless.

She got down , elbows deep in the mud, and crawled her way up the narrow road.
I doubt any able bodied adult in Australia faces homelessness, discrimination and disadvantage that Oprah did.
Why won't people try to copy that?

Why don't they have a plan to try to improve?

Because if they don't make a plan, they never realise they are failing.
They can just suck at life forever and then it's over.

Any plan is better then no plan
Go and interview the 700,000 on new start and ask them what their plan is.
Ask them how they intend to improve each day when they bounce out of bed.

99 % will have NO plan except to COPE.

Just try to cope with this rough world.
Coping mentality..
To be that rediculous when opportunity abounds everywhere like low hanging fruit
Dude
That's insane
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Bobby.
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #18 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 3:20pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:54pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:43pm:
Aqua should start up a business like Tony Robbins -
with his motivation speeches.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Tony_Robbins.jpg/220px...



Tony started off pretty broke.
So did Oprah.
Pregnant to a relative at 14 and in a psych hospital, then homeless.

She got down , elbows deep in the mud, and crawled her way up the narrow road.
I doubt any able bodied adult in Australia faces homelessness, discrimination and disadvantage that Oprah did.
Why won't people try to copy that?

Why don't they have a plan to try to improve?

Because if they don't make a plan, they never realise they are failing.
They can just suck at life forever and then it's over.

Any plan is better then no plan
Go and interview the 700,000 on new start and ask them what their plan is.
Ask them how they intend to improve each day when they bounce out of bed.

99 % will have NO plan except to COPE.

Just try to cope with this rough world.
Coping mentality..
To be that rediculous when opportunity abounds everywhere like low hanging fruit
Dude
That's insane



People pay good money to go to Tony Robbin's speeches.
When they leave they feel so energized -
as if they rule the world.

About a week later when they realise that nothing
has changed except they were parted with their money - they then get angry.
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aquascoot
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #19 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 3:33pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 3:20pm:
aquascoot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:54pm:
Bobby. wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:43pm:
Aqua should start up a business like Tony Robbins -
with his motivation speeches.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Tony_Robbins.jpg/220px...



Tony started off pretty broke.
So did Oprah.
Pregnant to a relative at 14 and in a psych hospital, then homeless.

She got down , elbows deep in the mud, and crawled her way up the narrow road.
I doubt any able bodied adult in Australia faces homelessness, discrimination and disadvantage that Oprah did.
Why won't people try to copy that?

Why don't they have a plan to try to improve?

Because if they don't make a plan, they never realise they are failing.
They can just suck at life forever and then it's over.

Any plan is better then no plan
Go and interview the 700,000 on new start and ask them what their plan is.
Ask them how they intend to improve each day when they bounce out of bed.

99 % will have NO plan except to COPE.

Just try to cope with this rough world.
Coping mentality..
To be that rediculous when opportunity abounds everywhere like low hanging fruit
Dude
That's insane



People pay good money to go to Tony Robbin's speeches.
When they leave they feel so energized -
as if they rule the world.

About a week later when they realise that nothing
has changed except they were parted with their money - they then get angry.



Nothing can change in a week bobby.
And why pay to see Robbins when there are millions of free podcasts to listen to on your own personal psychology.

But people are very resistant to change bobby

Lets say you have spent a lifetime complaining about how government  and rich people are holding you down.
That's YOU now.
Those neural pathways to thinking that way are entrenched.
If you want to think another way, you almost have to spend as much time and effort building a new pathway and reinforcing it over and over and over.

About 3500 repetitions, the army say, before you develop the muscle memory to over ride your pre existing modes of behaviour.

So if you want to get fit, that's maybe 10 years you have to commit to daily exercise before it becomes YOU.
If you want to lose weight, that's maybe 10 years of good eating before you are a new person and can take your foot off the pedal.

But here's the thing bobby.
If you just commit to improve .00001 % everyday, then you win every game , every day, for eternity.
It's he slow brutal boring nature of climbing the narrow road.

You will always be a fool before you are a master.
Tiger woods, Rafal nadal did not win the first time they played.

Success is boring and moves forward at a glacial pace.

Trump didn't get into the White House at 24 after he built his first hotel.
He was talking about and strategically planning it since the late 80's.

But if you bounce out of bed without an aim, then you are guaranteed to fail.
If you have an aim ( even if you aim badly ) and you keep on course correcting, you will win.

Not in one week though  Wink
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Bobby.
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #20 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 3:48pm
 
Aqua - you could make $10k per week as
the new Tony Robbins.

...


You actually believe your own bullshit.  Grin
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aquascoot
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #21 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 3:54pm
 
bobby

google

limiting beliefs

and

success barriers  Wink
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whiteknight
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #22 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 4:07pm
 
Jessica applies for 50 jobs a month and battles to survive on Newstart, with nothing left after bills and rent    Sad

News.com.au


Newstart a national embarrassment — ACOSS and Deloitte
Newstart hasn't increase in real terms for over 24 years. At less than $40 a day, the report argues for an increase of $10 a day.
Jessica will apply for up to 50 jobs over the course of May, as she does every month.

The 22-year-old will juggle that gruelling search with a terrifying battle to survive on a paltry sum that leaves her with virtually nothing after the cost of rent, bills and groceries.

“It’s so hard to make ends meet,” Jessica told news.com.au. “No matter what I do, I can’t seem to get ahead.”   Sad

She shares a unit in Frankston in Melbourne’s south with her grandmother and the pair splits expenses like a regular share house.

Jessica, who hopes to start study at TAFE in July and eventually become a registered nurse, told news.com.au she received $600 each fortnight from Centrelink, comprising the Newstart unemployment benefit and rent assistance.

From that, $250 goes to housing, $150 to food, $20 for public transport, $30 for a home internet connection, $20 for prepaid phone credit and $10 for miscellaneous minor expenses.

She has a longstanding debt that she’s slowly chipping away at and is trying to save up for study.

“I recently just got a Centrelink loan so it’s gone down again,” Jessica explained.

“I had a few big bills I had to pay. I was hoping to put (the loan) towards getting a cheap car but the bills chewed it all up.”

From news.com.au

Jessica battles to make ends meet on Newstart.



Much of her time is spent trawling job websites and Facebook groups where casual vacancies are posted, filling out applications, sitting assessments and hoping for an interview.

“I apply for maybe 40 or 50 jobs a month. I get the odd interview here or there but just can’t get someone to give me a go,” she said.

“I don’t think people want to hire 22-year-olds for a job that they can pay a 16-year-old to do for much less.

“I’ve had bits and pieces of work over the past few years but not much. I might get waitressing for a few hours a week here or there. It’s hard to find a stable job that pays enough to survive.”

Low-skilled work is hard to come by and there’s often strong competition for jobs that don’t have guaranteed hours, meaning an added layer of uncertainty.

Jessica will do “pretty much anything” at this point. She’s open to any kind of paid work in whatever industry will take her.

“But transport is the big thing. You need your own transport to get to a lot of jobs. Trains and buses aren’t always reliable if you need to start early or finish late. The buses aren’t running.

“How do you get home late at night from work? I can’t afford a cab. Do I walk home at 11pm or midnight, on my own in the dark?”    Sad

And there’s simply not enough work to go around, with Australian Bureau of Statistics data showing there’s just one vacancy on average for every eight jobseekers.


A campaign is under way to urgently increase Newstart and to change the framework surrounding it. Picture: AAPSource:AAP

While our unemployment is low, experts say Australia is in the grips of an underemployment crisis, where people have to multiple casual or part-time jobs to make ends meet.

The unemployment benefit Newstart, which up to 800,000 people receive, effectively hasn’t increased for more than 20 years but during that time, the cost of living has soared and anyone who needs welfare is likely to struggle just to survive.

Conny Lenneberg, the executive director of the charity the Brotherhood of St Laurence, which runs the Share the Pie campaign to increase Newstart, said most people cope by eating less.

“People have no choice but to do without,” Ms Lenneberg said.

“They’re increasingly leaning on the charitable sector for support. We’ve seen a growth in the number of food banks over the past decade. We’ve seen increasing reliability on homelessness and housing support services. We’re seeing worsening mental health.

“It’s just not acceptable for one of the wealthiest countries in the world to ignore a very broadbased recognition that Newstart is set at a level that’s not sufficient.”

Community groups and even the business community are now calling for the government to urgently lift the payments.

Even former Prime Minister John Howard said the amount is inadequate and should be increased.


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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #23 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 4:50pm
 
Mmm, you make an interesting point whiteknight about the unemployed and Newstart increases.

You can't get a job that doesn't a exist, and we can't force private employers to employ people, so what can we do?

Maybe increasing Newstart is the way to go.
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #24 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 5:15pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:41pm:
0ktema wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:00pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 1:39pm:
So if this economic case is so strong, why is no-one here able to say what it is?



Did you happen to read the first post?

"Imagine a single policy that could boost our lacklustre economy by $4 billion, create an additional 12,000 jobs by 2021, disproportionately support regional and remote communities doing it tough with drought and bushfires, reduce inequality by benefiting the poorest fifth of Australians 28 times more than the richest, disproportionately support women, boost wages and corporate profits, and increase federal and state tax revenue by more than $1.25 billion."

"What the economy needs is more demand. While businesses have stopped investing and expanding, their profits are at record highs, the ASX200 has broken new ground, bond yields and interest rates are at record lows and share buybacks and dividend payouts are at unprecedented levels. The message from the data is clear: businesses are awash with cash, and can easily get more if they want it, but they will only invest and hire if there is demand for what they sell."






I've never been able to get my head around this idea that a consumer is valuable just by way of consuming.
A consumer must also create something of value and contribute so he has something to trade.

In what way is a bush tick ( a consumer  of my cattle s blood)  valuable to the cow.

It is surely just a parasitic relationship.


If I pay taxes and a centrelink recipient buys my beef stake with that money handed to him by a middleman ( canberra) I make no gain out of that deal.

If I sell my stake to a chinaman who makes me an iPhone, then that is the basis of a market economy.

If white knight wants to come and put up some fences, I am happy to provide him with a hearty meal.
If white knight wants to sit on a computer and " complain" why would I sacrifice a cow to his complaining.
In what way does the cow or my business benefit ?


Your image is too limited - the bush tick also pays taxes and keeps the cow's marrow producing good blood...
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #25 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 7:06pm
 
0ktema wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 2:00pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 1:39pm:
So if this economic case is so strong, why is no-one here able to say what it is?



Did you happen to read the first post?

"Imagine a single policy that could boost our lacklustre economy by $4 billion, create an additional 12,000 jobs by 2021, disproportionately support regional and remote communities doing it tough with drought and bushfires, reduce inequality by benefiting the poorest fifth of Australians 28 times more than the richest, disproportionately support women, boost wages and corporate profits, and increase federal and state tax revenue by more than $1.25 billion."

"What the economy needs is more demand. While businesses have stopped investing and expanding, their profits are at record highs, the ASX200 has broken new ground, bond yields and interest rates are at record lows and share buybacks and dividend payouts are at unprecedented levels. The message from the data is clear: businesses are awash with cash, and can easily get more if they want it, but they will only invest and hire if there is demand for what they sell."





That is the claim being made, I see no case for why it is true. It is a pretty vacuous argument, and about as useful as waving your arms in the air.
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0ktema
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #26 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 8:58pm
 
@ freediver

I've been reading sections of the "Analysis of the impact of raising benefit rates" put together for the  Australian Council of Social Service by Deloitte Access Economics.

There's no doubt of the positive economic impacts, however these would fade over time.

The greatest long term dividend would be bringing greater fairness to our society at a relatively small overall cost to tax payers.


Quote:
The impact on Australia’s economy Lifting these allowances would have both prosperity and fairness impacts.The fairness impacts dominate, but there are prosperity points to consider too.

Deloitte Access Economics used our Horizon macroeconometric model of the Australian economy to model a lift in allowances that is effective immediately.  The direct cost of the Federal budget is about $3.3billion a year:In nominal dollars, the size of the Australian economy (“the prosperity dividend”) would lift by some $4.0 billion as a result of that extra spending,meaning that the size of the economy initially increases broadly in line with the initial income injection of $3.3billion.That’s because several factors offset. 

Among the negatives:–Most notably, some of the extra spending by beneficiaries would be on imports.–And a modest increase in the value of the Australian dollar would weigh on exports.–While, similarly, interest rates would also be a little higher than otherwise.  Among other things, that would see fewer new homes being built (as well as less done by way of renovating old homes).

Among the positives:–That money goes as extra income to a group that, on average, is the poorest of the poor in Australia.  Other things equal, most of it is therefore spent.So it’s no surprise that the bulk of the dollars –some $3.3billion a year –show up as extra spending by consumers.  –And while imports would go up, the bulk of the extra spending by beneficiaries would be spent at home.  That extra spending would create some 12,000 extra jobs.  And the accompanying strength in the market for workers would lift wages.  (Prices would also be a little higher, but the increase in wages would outweigh that in prices.)


Quote:
It is important to note that the modelling may well understate the extent of the prosperity allowances. Most notably, it is important that these dollars would flow to the poorest of the poor in Australia.Their spending patterns are likely to differ to the averages assumed in the modelling here because of who they are and because of where they live:

The beneficiaries are poor, so they’re likely to spend a larger share of any additional income and, within that, the money is more likely to be spent on essentials such as food, heating and shelter.

That’s important, as such spending is less subject to import competition.  Or, to put that another way, more of those dollars are likely to stay in Australia than the model assumes. And the beneficiaries disproportionately live in regional Australia –where, again, import penetration is lower, so more of those dollars are likely to stay in Australia than the model assumes


https://www.acoss.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/DAE-Analysis-of-the-impact-o...
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« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2020 at 9:10pm by 0ktema »  


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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #27 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 9:59pm
 
Quote:
There's no doubt of the positive economic impacts, however these would fade over time.


What are these benefits? Can you give an answer that doesn't sound like you are trying to wave a magic wand?
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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #28 - Jan 3rd, 2020 at 11:05pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2020 at 9:59pm:
Quote:
There's no doubt of the positive economic impacts, however these would fade over time.


What are these benefits? Can you give an answer that doesn't sound like you are trying to wave a magic wand?



I'm only going by what is written in the Deloitte Access Economics report! - It sounds like you don't think it's very credible, is that correct?  Anyway all aspects of the report are laid out with references to the primary studies.


From the report :

- $3.3billion a year would show up as extra spending by consumers

- 12,000 new jobs

- Australian wages would lift by around 0.2%

- Stronger economy would boost corporate profits

- Federal Government would raise an extra $1.0billion in taxes

- State and Territory Government revenues would increase by some $0.25billion

- Reduced financial pressures on the poor lead to better health outcomes


Importantly:

- Newstart benefits haven’t risen in line with national living standards for a quarter of a century

- So Newstart has shrunk as a share of:

–average wages,

–median wages,

–the minimum wage, and

–the age pension


At this point, I think anyone who still considers denying Newstart recipients a reasonable increase, are plainly and simply being mean spirited!

https://www.acoss.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/DAE-Analysis-of-the-impact-o...






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« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2020 at 11:18pm by 0ktema »  


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Re: The Strong Economic Case For Increasing Newstart
Reply #29 - Jan 4th, 2020 at 12:48am
 
Trouble is - and I've said this over and over - until such time as there is a moratorium on cost of living rises, which is a pretty major step - any increase is always only ever going to follow COL rises, and then actually contributes to further rises.

Unless you live in a controlled economy, these two can never be reconciled - what CAN be effected is to stop unnecessary additions to cost of living - primarily 'privatisation' nonsense -  and retain public utlities and services in public hands.

Worked well for years - then the parasites got into the act, starting with that leech, Greiner, and his rapacious ideas on 'government' - for him and his, that is.... not for the people.  A Lib 'elder statesman' - and the morons still listen to this thief.
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