Australian Politics Forum - Downunder we don't have AR-15s...

Panther

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #45 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:43am

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:35am:

Panther wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 9:13pm:

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 8:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 8:14pm:

Most gun accidents do not involve bad men.

That's true. Most gun deaths do not involve accidents.

That's True

USA:

Thus far in 2020, there have been unintentional shootings by over 220 children.

Children die accidentally from many causes.....in falls, car accidents, & pool drownings...etc....etc......etc......accidental death, it's a fact of life.

So, what's your point? Another false comparison to little ole Australia & its 1996 Johnny Laws on the horizon?

Any excuse will do.

I accept your white flag of surrender........

God Bless
The United States Constitution
............

God Bless
AMERICA

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« Last Edit: Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:50am by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103271 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s... Reply #46 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:46am No need for guns - just teach the cops Karate:
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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17352 Gender:	Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s... Reply #47 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:04pm Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:46am: No need for guns - just teach the cops Karate: Never take a knife to a gunfight.
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Bobby.

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #48 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:10pm

lee wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:04pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:46am:

No need for guns -
just teach the cops Karate:

Never take a knife to a gunfight.

But how many crims have guns and would use them on cops?

In England and NZ - the cops very seldom carry guns.
They don't walk around like cowboys as they do here
with a gun on their hip.
I think the cops should be able to decide for
themselves if they want to carry a gun.
As far as I know - they don't have any choice.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40938	Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s... Reply #49 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:13pm
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lee

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #50 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 2:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:10pm:

But how many crims have guns and would use them on cops?

How many crims have guns? A lot it seems

Would they use them on cops? I definitely think so. Rather pointless to carry one and not use it to prevent arrest.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:10pm:

In England and NZ - the cops very seldom carry guns.

And they still die from gunshot.

"The Metropolitan Police officer shot dead in Croydon is the 17th from the force to have been killed by a firearm since the Second World War.

But since the beginning of the 20th Century 73 police officers have been shot and killed by criminals in the UK, excluding all deaths in Northern Ireland.

The majority of those deaths - more than 50 - have occurred since 1945. "

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54293111

The figures for Australia are harder to find. The latest I can see is up until 2007. And that total from 1945 is 9.

https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/bitstream/handle/10072/27745/56521_1...

Table 2

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Bobby.

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #51 - Oct 17^th, 2020 at 3:06pm

lee wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 2:37pm:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:10pm:

But how many crims have guns and would use them on cops?

How many crims have guns? A lot it seems

Would they use them on cops? I definitely think so. Rather pointless to carry one and not use it to prevent arrest.

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 1:10pm:

In England and NZ - the cops very seldom carry guns.

And they still die from gunshot.

"The Metropolitan Police officer shot dead in Croydon is the 17th from the force to have been killed by a firearm since the Second World War.

But since the beginning of the 20th Century 73 police officers have been shot and killed by criminals in the UK, excluding all deaths in Northern Ireland.

The majority of those deaths - more than 50 - have occurred since 1945. "

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54293111

The figures for Australia are harder to find. The latest I can see is up until 2007. And that total from 1945 is 9.

https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/bitstream/handle/10072/27745/56521_1...

Table 2

Thanks Lee,
I think the police are too tempted to shoot people with guns.
There have been too many people shot
when a police baton or a taser would have done the job.

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Panther

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #52 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 9:42am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 3:06pm:

.....I think the police are too tempted to shoot people with guns.
There have been too many people shot
when a police baton or a taser would have done the job.

You don't take away an Officer's most valuable weapon which he/she can choose to use in self-defense if his/her life is in danger.

Having a baton is cute, but if he/she is confronted by multiple perpetrators, or even only one perp with a firearm, the Officer can only toss the baton at the perp as he/she is running for their life, hoping to disable the perp before he gets a shot off...

A taser may have better results, but again when facing more than one perp, or a heavily armed perp, having only a taser & baton will most probably just get the Officer killed. That's not an acceptable outcome.

Besides, if you dig up the stats of when cops discharge their firearms, you will probably find that better than 99% of the times when a perp is injured or killed by a cop's firearm, it was a justified use of the firearm.....

If you're concerned about the perp getting shot & possibly killed, then the Officers training is probably the best way to help him/her to make correct decisions in most all circumstances.

Disarming Law Enforcement is never the best decision to make........just ask any experienced cop.....they know what tools they might need to do the job, & return safely home to their families at the end of the work day.

..

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« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2020 at 9:51am by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Dnarever

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #53 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 10:28am

Panther wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 9:42am:

Bobby. wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 3:06pm:

.....I think the police are too tempted to shoot people with guns.
There have been too many people shot
when a police baton or a taser would have done the job.

You don't take away an Officer's most valuable weapon which he/she can choose to use in self-defense if his/her life is in danger.

Having a baton is cute, but if he/she is confronted by multiple perpetrators, or even only one perp with a firearm, the Officer can only toss the baton at the perp as he/she is running for their life, hoping to disable the perp before he gets a shot off...

A taser may have better results, but again when facing more than one perp, or a heavily armed perp, having only a taser & baton will most probably just get the Officer killed. That's not an acceptable outcome.

Besides, if you dig up the stats of when cops discharge their firearms, you will probably find that better than 99% of the times when a perp is injured or killed by a cop's firearm, it was a justified use of the firearm.....

If you're concerned about the perp getting shot & possibly killed, then the Officers training is probably the best way to help him/her to make correct decisions in most all circumstances.

Disarming Law Enforcement is never the best decision to make........just ask any experienced cop.....they know what tools they might need to do the job, & return safely home to their families at the end of the work day.

..

So you conclusion is the Cops need to be heavily armed because the community is ?

Quote:

you will probably find that better than 99% of the times when a perp is injured or killed by a cop's firearm, it was a justified use of the firearm

I would think 80% is optimistic.

Quote:

Disarming Law Enforcement is never the best decision to make

Don't think anyone is suggesting that it is.

Seems you are successfully making the argument that there are too many guns in the community to allow safe policing without collateral deaths.

Yes guns in the community is one of the main factors behind police gun crime.

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Panther

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #54 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:00pm

Dnarever wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 10:28am:

So you conclusion is the Cops need to be heavily armed because the community is ?

Quote:

you will probably find that better than 99% of the times when a perp is injured or killed by a cop's firearm, it was a justified use of the firearm

I would think 80% is optimistic.

Quote:

Disarming Law Enforcement is never the best decision to make

Don't think anyone is suggesting that it is.

Seems you are successfully making the argument that there are too many guns in the community to allow safe policing without collateral deaths..........

Being that a Crystal Ball isn't standard department issue, there is no way an Officer would know for sure what he/she would be up against. So, to be properly prepared for the 'worse case scenario', having superior weaponry than the criminal might have, is a must.......ask any experienced Officer that wants to get safely home to his family at the end of his shift, & IMHO they would probably agree......

PS....keeping in mind the threads title......I'm assuming that we are dealing with Aussie Crims, & Aussie Cops

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« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:07pm by Panther »

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Bobby.

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #55 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:24pm

Panther wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:00pm:

Being that a Crystal Ball isn't standard department issue, there is no way an Officer would know for sure what he/she would be up against. So, to be properly prepared for the 'worse case scenario', having superior weaponry than the criminal might have, is a must.......ask any experienced Officer that wants to get safely home to his family at the end of his shift, & IMHO they would probably agree......

PS....keeping in mind the threads title......I'm assuming that we are dealing with Aussie Crims, & Aussie Cops

The only weapon the cops need is a copy of the Bible.
When threatened by crims, the cops
should just hold the Bible in the air and shout the name of Jesus.

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Panther

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #56 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:40pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:24pm:

Panther wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:00pm:

Being that a Crystal Ball isn't standard department issue, there is no way an Officer would know for sure what he/she would be up against. So, to be properly prepared for the 'worse case scenario', having superior weaponry than the criminal might have, is a must.......ask any experienced Officer that wants to get safely home to his family at the end of his shift, & IMHO they would probably agree......

PS....keeping in mind the threads title......I'm assuming that we are dealing with Aussie Crims, & Aussie Cops

The only weapon the cops need is a copy of the Bible.
When threatened by crims, the cops
should just hold the Bible in the air and shout the name of Jesus.

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When government fears the People there is Freedom & Liberty!"

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Live FREE or DIE!
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lee

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #57 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:42pm

Dnarever wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 10:28am:

Quote:
you will probably find that better than 99% of the times when a perp is injured or killed by a cop's firearm, it was a justified use of the firearm

I would think 80% is optimistic.

"There were 82 shooting deaths in police custody between 2006–07 and 2016–17 (see Table A1).
Fifty-seven percent (n=47) of these deaths were police shootings, and 43 percent (n=35) were selfinflicted (see Table 1). All but three shooting deaths in police custody occurred as police attempted to detain the individual (see Table A2)"

"In 96 percent (n=43; see Table 4) of police shootings between 2006–07 and 2016–17 the decedent
was in possession of a weapon. The weapon most commonly possessed by decedents was a knife
(47%, n=21), followed by a firearm (31%, n=14). Between 1989–90 and 2010–11, 85 percent (n=89)
of fatal police shootings involved a decedent in possession of a weapon (AIC 2013). Since 2011–12,
this has increased to 100 percent (n=26)"

"The proportion of incidents in which the weapon was used against responding police officers was
higher in police shootings (88%, n=38) than self-inflicted shootings (34%, n=12). In police shootings,
knives were most likely to be used against police, either to threaten (n=15) or injure (n=2) a police
officer. Decedents who ultimately shot themselves were most likely to threaten (n=10) or kill (n=1)
a responding police officer using the firearm ultimately used to shoot themselves. In one other
self-inflicted shooting case, the decedent injured a police officer with a knife."

"                                              No. %
Coronial findings available   39 83
Justifiable shooting                37 95
Unjustifiable shooting             2 5
Coronial findings unavailable 8 17

https://www.aic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2020-05/sb19_shooting_deaths_in_polic...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #58 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:48pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:24pm:

Panther wrote on Oct 18^th, 2020 at 12:00pm:

Being that a Crystal Ball isn't standard department issue, there is no way an Officer would know for sure what he/she would be up against. So, to be properly prepared for the 'worse case scenario', having superior weaponry than the criminal might have, is a must.......ask any experienced Officer that wants to get safely home to his family at the end of his shift, & IMHO they would probably agree......

PS....keeping in mind the threads title......I'm assuming that we are dealing with Aussie Crims, & Aussie Cops

The only weapon the cops need is a copy of the Bible.
When threatened by crims, the cops
should just hold the Bible in the air and shout the name of Jesus.

Reminds me of that story of a WW II soldier saved by a bullet hitting his bible ... he reckoned the bullet killed the Bible thus saving his soul...

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Dnarever

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Re: Downunder we don't have AR-15s...
Reply #59 - Oct 18^th, 2020 at 4:00pm

Panther wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:43am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:35am:

Panther wrote on Oct 17^th, 2020 at 8:28am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 9:13pm:

lee wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 8:46pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 16^th, 2020 at 8:14pm:

Most gun accidents do not involve bad men.

That's true. Most gun deaths do not involve accidents.

That's True

USA:

Thus far in 2020, there have been unintentional shootings by over 220 children.

Children die accidentally from many causes.....in falls, car accidents, & pool drownings...etc....etc......etc......accidental death, it's a fact of life.

So, what's your point? Another false comparison to little ole Australia & its 1996 Johnny Laws on the horizon?

Any excuse will do.

I accept your white flag of surrender........http://www.33sm.ml/smileys/taunt.gif

God Bless
The United States Constitution
............

God Bless
AMERICA

http://www.33sm.ml/smileys/2ndAmendmentPermitLG.gif

You misrepresent what was said and fly the US flag - Your good at disrespecting your nation and belittling your amendment.

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