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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #60 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:28am

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:27am:

issuevoter wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 4:03am:

Atheists are very quick to point out the stupidity of Christianity, in fact they seem to enjoy the ridicule, but they have to be manoeuvred into a corner to do the same with Islam or Judaism.

Ok, let’s start with Christianity. Which particular sect or branch are you referring to here? All of them or just some? As to ridicule, as an agnostic ridicule is the least of my approaches to superstition. Contempt and loathing for twisted belief systems and the monstrous neuroticism and suffering they’ve induced over the ages is closer to my view.
I’m also intrigued by your use of the term ‘they’ given atheism comes in a number of flavours.

So, given your lifestyle and personal experience, you have found no solace from those who follow Judeo-Christian tenets or enforce them with brutality. Is that your point?

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Ayn Marx

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #61 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:43am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:28am:

a number of flavours.

So, given your lifestyle and personal experience, you have found no solace from those who follow Judeo-Christian tenets or enforce them with brutality. Is that your point?
[/quote]
Which particular Judeo-Christian tenets? There are a multitude of contradictory ’tenets’ in both the Tora and the many (mis)translations of the bible.
Which particular brutality are you hinting at? As far as I’m concerned it’s a long list.
And what exactly do you know about my lifestyle? If you’re edging around listing my being openly gay, so what. Scriptural so called authority on the subject is a very dangerous area for you to step into. We could start with the many mistranslations of 1st Timothy 1:10.

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issuevoter

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #62 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:53am

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:27am:

issuevoter wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 4:03am:

Atheists are very quick to point out the stupidity of Christianity, in fact they seem to enjoy the ridicule, but they have to be manoeuvred into a corner to do the same with Islam or Judaism.

Ok, let’s start with Christianity. Which particular sect or branch are you referring to here? All of them or just some? As to ridicule, as an agnostic ridicule is the least of my approaches to superstition. Contempt and loathing for twisted belief systems and the monstrous neuroticism and suffering they’ve induced over the ages is closer to my view.
I’m also intrigued by your use of the term ‘they’ given atheism comes in a number of flavours.

Excellent obfuscation instead of a denial.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #63 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:43am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:28am:

a number of flavours.

So, given your lifestyle and personal experience, you have found no solace from those who follow Judeo-Christian tenets or enforce them with brutality. Is that your point?

Which particular Judeo-Christian tenets? There are a multitude of contradictory ’tenets’ in both the Tora and the many (mis)translations of the bible.
Which particular brutality are you hinting at? As far as I’m concerned it’s a long list.
And what exactly do you know about my lifestyle? If you’re edging around listing my being openly gay, so what. Scriptural so called authority on the subject is a very dangerous area for you to step into. We could start with the many mistranslations of 1st Timothy 1:10.
[/quote]
I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

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Ayn Marx

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #64 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:45am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am:

I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

So, you get to pick and choose the passages you find innofensive?
This does not illuminate the specifics you claim atheists are very quick to point out the stupidity of .
As to the possibility Paul was motivated by a desire to 'make it acceptable to the Roman mind’, you may be correct but we have no substantive proof this was part of his motivation.
In fact we have little substantive proof of anything reported in vast tracts of the New Testament. Faith I’m afraid doesn’t fill in the gaps.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #65 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:56am

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:45am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am:

I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

As to the possibility Paul was motivated by a desire to 'make it acceptable to the Roman mind’, you may be correct but we have no substantive proof this was part of his motivation.

I'm not a 'follower' of Christianity and I would only accede to being 'culturally Christian'.

Actually, we do, in the Acts of the Apostles, James confronts Paul directly after James summons Paul to Jerusalem to answer to the charge that he has deviated drastically from the orthodoxy of the Jerusalem community of which James was the head (the Bishop of Bishops as he was known by all former followers of Joshua until his death in 63AD, even begrudgingly by Paul himself).

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #66 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 12:42pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:56am:

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:45am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am:

I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

As to the possibility Paul was motivated by a desire to 'make it acceptable to the Roman mind’, you may be correct but we have no substantive proof this was part of his motivation.

I'm not a 'follower' of Christianity and I would only accede to being 'culturally Christian'.

Actually, we do, in the Acts of the Apostles, James confronts Paul directly after James summons Paul to Jerusalem to answer to the charge that he has deviated drastically from the orthodoxy of the Jerusalem community of which James was the head (the Bishop of Bishops as he was known by all former followers of Joshua until his death in 63AD, even begrudgingly by Paul himself).

To add to that, James was the reason Paul found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time (i.e. in Rome under Nero after the great fire of Rome).

It was James who'd had Paul arrested and Paul pulled his Roman citizen card which entitled him to appeal to the emperor on provincial charges.

Paul was subsequently executed under Nero's orders not for any local crime in Judea but as part of a deflection for the fire which was placed on the (then named) Christians.

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Ayn Marx

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #67 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 1:02pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:56am:

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:45am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am:

I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

As to the possibility Paul was motivated by a desire to 'make it acceptable to the Roman mind’, you may be correct but we have no substantive proof this was part of his motivation.

I'm not a 'follower' of Christianity and I would only accede to being 'culturally Christian'.

Actually, we do, in the Acts of the Apostles, James confronts Paul directly after James summons Paul to Jerusalem to answer to the charge that he has deviated drastically from the orthodoxy of the Jerusalem community of which James was the head (the Bishop of Bishops as he was known by all former followers of Joshua until his death in 63AD, even begrudgingly by Paul himself).

I’m tired of repeating this but here goes again. We have no way of knowing if any of the events described in the New Testament happened at all or happened as described.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #68 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 1:39pm

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 1:02pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:56am:

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:45am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 8:02am:

I'm not making judgements, nor defending biblical texts. I'm drawing on what you've already posted here about your life.

Certainly the Christian New Testament is littered with mistranslations and deliberate alterations, and too many to list in a post.

What we know as the New Testament was a rescripting of an eastern religion to suit the palate of largely Roman sensibility. The only part of the New Testament that hints at its original thought is the Epistle of James, which is essentially the castigation by James' (the Just, as he was called, the brother of Jesus/Joshua) and his deeply hostile response to Paul's (Saul) Romanising of Joshua's teaching.

Paul had, by about 40AD, stripped bare the tenets of (what was not yet called Christianity) anti-temple Judaism to its bare bones to make it acceptable to the Roman mind. James (the leader of the community post-Joshua) was vehemently opposed to Paul's teaching.

For example, Paul believed faith was all that was needed for salvation. James' argument was that faith without 'works' is empty. As he says, 'Show me your faith without works and I will show you mine with works'.

As to the possibility Paul was motivated by a desire to 'make it acceptable to the Roman mind’, you may be correct but we have no substantive proof this was part of his motivation.

I'm not a 'follower' of Christianity and I would only accede to being 'culturally Christian'.

Actually, we do, in the Acts of the Apostles, James confronts Paul directly after James summons Paul to Jerusalem to answer to the charge that he has deviated drastically from the orthodoxy of the Jerusalem community of which James was the head (the Bishop of Bishops as he was known by all former followers of Joshua until his death in 63AD, even begrudgingly by Paul himself).

I’m tired of repeating this but here goes again. We have no way of knowing if any of the events described in the New Testament happened at all or happened as described.

Then you could say that of any aged recorded history...

In fact there are ways of knowing on the balance of probabilities when multiple non-biblical history is included byond the four canonical testaments

But I'm guessing you will only have a 10-year-old's understanding of the nature of religion, let alone Judeo-Christian history.

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Frank

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #69 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 2:51pm

Ayn Marx wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 1:02pm:

I’m tired of repeating this but here goes again. We have no way of knowing if any of the events described in the New Testament happened at all or happened as described.

If you repeated it so often then obviously people are ignoring and dismissing it. And you know why? Because it is banal and irrelevant. Even if you take the NT as mythology, the truths it conveys are plain and evidently lasting and powerful.

Did the Buddha actually sit under bodhi tree, as described? See, that would be another banal and irrelevant question. Go on, ask it.

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Setanta Gold Member Offline \/ Peace man! Posts: 16616 Northern NSW Gender:	Re: Atheism Logo? Reply #70 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 6:40pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:51pm: Setanta wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 8:59pm: tell me why you believe I have a fairy in my pocket. Is that a fairy in your pocket or...? No, it's god in my pants.
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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #71 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 6:51pm

issuevoter wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:57pm:

Setanta wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 8:59pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 7:26am:

Quote:

That depends on your definition of Atheism. Many see it as an absence of belief in deities.

You cannot even define atheism without religion. It would be like trying to identify as an aborgist in a world without star trek. It would have no meaning at all.

Quote:

Before religion was invented by humans some time in the stone age as an attempt to explain the world, it was effectively an atheist world.

How do you know this?

The name describes the condition. I am atheist because I don't believe just any crap people make up. I believe in god as much as fairies in my garden or a teapot orbiting the sun. Show me or you're talking shyte. I don't believe in god, as much as I don't believe in Leprechauns, ie, I don't believe the stories.

If god believers see no belief the same as a belief, tell me why you believe I have a fairy in my pocket.

I think you are intelligent enough to know that is not a good enough reason. In fact I believe there are a lot of intelligent people who claim to be atheists as a kind of reaction to Judeo-Christian silliness. If one expands the idea of a diety beyond father-figures, judges, and personality, we have about as good an explanation of cosmic truth as any other. But it is like talking about reality before the big bang, and just to go on record, I don't give a rat's ass.

Let me put it this way, the only notion I have of a god is what people have told me. Every one of those "ideas" of what god is, is theirs, not mine. Every god man has put forward is found seriously wanting. When I say "god" this is the god I'm talking about. The petty, interfering, dictatorial, misogynistic, cruel invention of men to suit their own purposes.

If you have some other god in mind, enlighten us. I see no evidence of the god of any religion, therefore I reject the idea.

I've often pondered if I, left alone and scared, would invent a god too but I don't think I would and if I did, I don't think I'd want to impose it on anyone.

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Frank

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #72 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:07pm

'God' is the best you can aim for. It's the ideal. The point is that you SHOULD aim for the best - psychologically, philosophically, imaginatively. That is the gist of religion, mythology, literature.

To dismiss ALL previous generations' ideas of what is best, honourable, life-giving, etc, is stupid and arrogant and insular. You do not have to accept every insight and belief of your predecessors but dismissing them ALL because they were 'religious' is idiotic.

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #73 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:13pm

Setanta wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 6:51pm:

issuevoter wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 9:57pm:

Setanta wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 8:59pm:

freediver wrote on Aug 5^th, 2021 at 7:26am:

Quote:

That depends on your definition of Atheism. Many see it as an absence of belief in deities.

You cannot even define atheism without religion. It would be like trying to identify as an aborgist in a world without star trek. It would have no meaning at all.

Quote:

Before religion was invented by humans some time in the stone age as an attempt to explain the world, it was effectively an atheist world.

How do you know this?

The name describes the condition. I am atheist because I don't believe just any crap people make up. I believe in god as much as fairies in my garden or a teapot orbiting the sun. Show me or you're talking shyte. I don't believe in god, as much as I don't believe in Leprechauns, ie, I don't believe the stories.

If god believers see no belief the same as a belief, tell me why you believe I have a fairy in my pocket.

I think you are intelligent enough to know that is not a good enough reason. In fact I believe there are a lot of intelligent people who claim to be atheists as a kind of reaction to Judeo-Christian silliness. If one expands the idea of a diety beyond father-figures, judges, and personality, we have about as good an explanation of cosmic truth as any other. But it is like talking about reality before the big bang, and just to go on record, I don't give a rat's ass.

Let me put it this way, the only notion I have of a god is what people have told me. Every one of those "ideas" of what god is, is theirs, not mine. Every god man has put forward is found seriously wanting. When I say "god" this is the god I'm talking about. The petty, interfering, dictatorial, misogynistic, cruel invention of men to suit their own purposes.

If you have some other god in mind, enlighten us. I see no evidence of the god of any religion, therefore I reject the idea.

I've often pondered if I, left alone and scared, would invent a god too but I don't think I would and if I did, I don't think I'd want to impose it on anyone.

10-4 good buddy.

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Setanta

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Re: Atheism Logo?
Reply #74 - Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:26pm

Frank wrote on Aug 6^th, 2021 at 7:07pm:

'God' is the best you can aim for. It's the ideal. The point is that you SHOULD aim for the best - psychologically, philosophically, imaginatively. That is the gist of religion, mythology, literature.

To dismiss ALL previous generations' ideas of what is best, honourable, life-giving, etc, is stupid and arrogant and insular. You do not have to accept every insight and belief of your predecessors but dismissing them ALL because they were 'religious' is idiotic.

Justify your claims it's the best you can aim for. Look at Yahweh, El, Allah. Tell me they are the ideal. Perhaps Odin, who gave his eye for knowledge, gods that sacrifice too but that is a reflection of a higher ideal, not the dictatorship of monotheism.

It think I'm better off without any god that has been put to me by man.

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