Australian Politics Forum - no such thing as baseload power demand

Gnads

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #45 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:31am

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:20pm:

lee wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 12:16pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 9:09am:

There is no such thing as baseline power demand.

Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?

There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.

The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.

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Gnads

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #46 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:33am

Jasin wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 11:59am:

If the ALP were in Power - they would be giving all these major Corps and Companies $million dollar packages like they did before and these Corps/Companies ran away with the money - a lot going to CEO bonuses.
The money should be spent on the People, not the Corps/Companies. They chose Privatisation - they're on their own. As too are the Privatised Schools.

you loon.

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Gnads

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #47 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:36am

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:34pm:

lee wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:32pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:20pm:

There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price.

So bugger the hospitals; they don't need no stinkin' power? Grin

Correct. Anything that "needs" power has it's own backup generators.

It's all in the name - "backup".

Do you know what that means in this situation?

Or are you suggesting they run on these 24/7? Roll Eyes

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29271 Gender:	Re: no such thing as baseline power demand Reply #48 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:38am Jasin wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:57pm: I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned. As FD is always saying - your point?
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Dnarever

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #49 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:56am

lee wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:52pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:42pm:

Do you have a point?

Poor petal. Hospitals RELY on baseload power. Backup generators mean that when the power goes out there is a time when there is no power in the hospital. "Now where is that spleen"? Grin

No Lee wrong here. These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.

Not that I see a topic here. There will be a measure for projected power demand may as well call it baseline as anything else. Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true.

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Jasin

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #50 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 7:02am

Gnads wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:38am:

Jasin wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:57pm:

I saw a huge 20cm cable of Electricity ripped up and torn apart upon a Hospital construction site by mistake. Site was shut down for awhile. Hospital still functioned.

As FD is always saying - your point?

There wasn't any 'hiccup' and problem about Power supply at the Hospital. Plenty of back up contingencies apparently. The watermelon thick cable of wires sliced in half had no impact whatsoever on the performance of the Hospital.
Just thought I'ld add that - nothing major.

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Jasin

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #51 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 7:07am

I'ld say FD's 'Privatisation' angle is much like New Zealand - so far a nation ahead of Australia in many ways.
So much so, they can own NSW as a State of theirs, more than the other way around.

Civil Politics is way ahead. Australia couldn't even get the PM to follow orders from the Fire Commissioner during the Wild Fires - apparently the PM was 'in control' from a holiday in Hawaii all along.
Privatisation is going great guns and less Kiwis are moving to Australia for work these days.

Australian Marriages are 30% down, 4% pre-corona.
NZ Marriages are up.

Everything about Australia's history since 1788 has basically been a success in New Zealand, rather than Australia.

...even now Russia blasts Australia for 'War Crimes'.
Ironic huh Tongue

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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.

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lee

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #52 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 3:39pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:28am:

Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Poor petal. Of course it can fail. No it isn't theoretical. Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required. It doesn't mean that there is no baseload. Roll Eyes

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:28am:

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

Correct

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The_Barnacle

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #53 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 3:50pm

Gnads wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:31am:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 1:20pm:

lee wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 12:16pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 29^th, 2020 at 9:09am:

There is no such thing as baseline power demand.

Wrong. If you accept that there is a minimum power requirement - why is that not baseload?

BTW what is Baseline power?

There is no real minimum. It depends entirely on price. For example, under the current crude arrangements, a lot of things run on "off-peak" power because it is cheaper. If it wasn't cheaper, a lot of that demand would evaporate.

Likewise, a lot of the peak demand would disappear if the price paid reflected the current marginal cost of production.

The reason suppliers have come up with the "offpeak" supply & rates for things such as residential hot water systems(that ran 24/7 previously) is to reduce pressure on the system supply to prevent things like brown outs & black outs as they reduce generation capacity with no new power stations being built.

And the new "smart meter" installed now make it so much easier for them to price gouge consumers in the drive for profits.

Not quite,
"offpeak" was originally invented because when everyone is asleep coal powered generators were generating more power than was actually needed, (baseload output was greater than baseline demand) so they had to encourage people to use power at these times.

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lee

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #54 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 3:55pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:56am:

These types of backup systems would have not much more than a quick flicker of power loss on essential systems, maybe not even that.

That doesn't scan very well. But I think you are confusing "no break" power where a generator is constantly running to "Stand by" power that is only started when power fails and then has to warmed up and brought up to speed.

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:56am:

Saying it isn't real is true enough - it was never meant to be true.

So hospitals went 24 hour only because power became available? Roll Eyes

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Dnarever

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #55 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:14pm

lee wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 3:39pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:28am:

Baseload demand cannot fail ? Its a theoretical estimate.

Poor petal. Of course it can fail. No it isn't theoretical. Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required. It doesn't mean that there is no baseload. Roll Eyes

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:28am:

Baseload supply can fail but that is different to this topic - no ?

Correct

Quote:

Baseload is the minimum required. IF the generators require more to be generated to keep them turning that merely overstates the level of baseload required.

You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.

Baseload supply is the minimum supplied by the generators running at their min. As soon as you introduce the word demand it is not this.

Demand is either referring to the current network demand in real terms or a projected figure for supply planning. Baseload demand (may not even be a real term) but could only be a projection of the base supply requirement. This could be something like baseload plus 20%. Expected base distribution requirement over a specified time period like an expected peak.

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lee

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #56 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 5:03pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:14pm:

You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.

Yes. So baseload is real, non-theoretical. You can't theorise demand with any exactitude.

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Jasin Gold Member Online Posts: 47353 Gender:	Re: no such thing as baseline power demand Reply #57 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 5:07pm Thanks FD. Feeling like a ping-pong ball on this one.
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Dnarever

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #58 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:23pm

lee wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 5:03pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 4:14pm:

You are talking about the minimum baseload available for supply. The demand baseload is the projected baseload needed. The demand load needed is a Realtime load which may exceed the baseload.

Yes. So baseload is real, non-theoretical. You can't theorise demand with any exactitude.

Real demand is just demand. A baseline is just the starting point of measurement. A baseload is a known system parameter.

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Dnarever

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Re: no such thing as baseline power demand
Reply #59 - Nov 30^th, 2020 at 6:25pm

Jasin wrote on Nov 30^th, 2020 at 5:07pm:

Thanks FD. Feeling like a ping-pong ball on this one. Undecided

Yes I don't even care. I think he is likely right for a change. The term is not logical, I am not sure that it means anything or even really exists as a valid term.

I suspect that people think he means baseload power.

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