polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 13
th, 2021 at 10:44am:
freediver wrote on Jan 8
th, 2021 at 6:47pm:
Quote:I'm obviously only talking about genuine believing muslims.
Yes Gandalf. The genuinely believing ones believe. But do you have a point? Or was it lost in your hubris?
Um yes FD. You said its possible to "satisfy all 5 tenets without believing anything". I pointed out that this is completely nonsensical given that the first tenet is literally all about belief. You then responded by referring to people who merely want to avoid getting their heads chopped off. So I clarify that I'm not talking about those sort of 'save-their-skins'-muslims-but-not-really.
The *point* of course being, that your muslims but not really muslims that you were referring to, could not possibly be "satisfying all 5 tenets" as you claimed - if they are not satisfying the all important "belief" tenet could they?
It makes perfect sense to utter the words if the alternative is to get your head chopped off. This is how Islam spread.
Quote: Quote:None of this is a barrier to you giving a straight answer Gandalf. Does the Quran talk about fighting and killing more than it talks about pillar 4?
Oh look, FD once against misses the straightest answer possible to this question that I've already given. Its uncanny isn't it FD?
Shall we start with what arabic words are used to describe "fasting", "fighting" and "killing" - where they occur and in what context? Of course it goes without saying you've already forgotton our discussion of what "fighting", in its various forms thoughout the Quran, actually means, and which ones refer to physical violence and which do not - as well as the need to consider the use of "killing" when it is to condemn and forbid it.
Yes Gandalf. Let's start with that. And a straight answer please. You realise how evasive it makes you look if you offer the excuses for your answer while refusing to offer the answer, don't you?
And I did respond to you on fighting. The instructions to die, fight, and kill the infidel are clear and unambiguous instructions to Muslims to die, fight and kill in the name of Islam. You are confusing the tapdancing Muslims give about the word jihad with fighting.
Quote:But I'll go out on a limb and say that (without going through the entire book for you), specific references to "fasting" are more prevalent than specific references to sanctioning killing of other people. But of course you would already know that, since I already clearly indicated this in reply#7 - right FD?
You don't have to count them yourself Gandalf. You can google it. It's not like I am the first one to think of actually counting the references to prove that Muslims are routinely lying to non-Muslims about the Quran. It took me about ten second to find out that there are 13 references to fasting in the Quran.
Quote: Quote: You are using the 5 pillars to misrepresent the Quran to non-Muslims, starting with describing them as tenets.
Right, so now you are objecting to using the words "pillars" and "tenets" interchangeably? Could you get any more ridiculous. Wait, don't answer that.
ten·et
/ˈtenət/
Learn to pronounce
noun
plural noun: tenets
a principle or belief, especially one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy.
"the tenets of a democratic society"Dare I say, fasting is a "principle or belief" of Islam.
It is also a major pillar of the religion.
Only an inane pedant who has no interest in a meaningful discussion would find anything wrong with the above statement.
Fasting is also something you do Gandalf. Every one of the 5 pillars is an action. What you misleadingly describe as Islam's "core tenets" are not beliefs at all.
And I am not objecting to using the words interchangeably. Pillars is often used to mean tenets. But you are misleading people to pretend that is the case here.
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