Australian Politics Forum - The F35 environment

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17509 Gender:	Re: The F35 environment Reply #15 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:35pm Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:28pm: The F-35s had their transponders switched on, Lee. Did they? Proof?
Back to top	IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #16 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:35pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:20pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:17pm:

If the Americans complain about them, and there's been a few, why wouldn't we suffer from the F35's shortcomings? The massive cost of these planes will escalate over time, like everything else that goes over budget

They've been "pushed" onto allies of the US, if the OP is correct. There'd be only one reason for that, getting the allies to share in the mega billions of dollars of development of the F35. We are suckers, these planes will lie idle in hangers for long periods, just because the NWO think we should have them. They cost a mint to fly them for just one hour, A$50,000. How many are we getting, 70 or so

Also - the F111s had a much greater range.
We need range with such a large country.

The F-111 did have range but it was not stealthy, it was a strike aircraft, not a fighter (despite the designation suffix) and it was at the end of it's life when it was retired. It lacked all the whizz-bang systems of the F-35 and it was over the hill, well and truly. Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #17 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:37pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 1:19pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 10:26am:

Now, Bobby, why isn't this in the Defence Forum? Roll Eyes

Because not only me but other posters have complained
that you delete on topic posts at your MRB.

The rules are there, Bobby. If you cannot accept them, that is your look out. Creating threads in a forum which is not where defence should be discussed is childish, as childish as your posting of Racist cartoons... Roll Eyes

Not as childish as deleting on topic posts
because you don't like them.

The rules of the forum are there for all to see, Bobby. No Racism, no personal attacks are allowed. QED. Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Bobby.

Moderator

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 104180
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #18 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:37pm

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:33pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:17pm:

If the Americans complain about them, and there's been a few, why wouldn't we suffer from the F35's shortcomings? The massive cost of these planes will escalate over time, like everything else that goes over budget

They've been "pushed" onto allies of the US, if the OP is correct. There'd be only one reason for that, getting the allies to share in the mega billions of dollars of development of the F35. We are suckers, these planes will lie idle in hangers for long periods, just because the NWO think we should have them. They cost a mint to fly them for just one hour, A$50,000. How many are we getting, 70 or so

And here is something I challenge all critics of the F-35 programme with. "What alternatives are there, which are as effective and as advanced as the F-35 which are available to the RAAF?" Well, here's a chance to hear your suggestions. There is nothing as developed and as available as the F-35 programme. The only way to take part in it is either hand over oodles and oodles of cash or hand over a lot less and be a part of the construction programme. The Russian Su57 is not as advanced. The Chinese J-20 fighter is not as advanced. The BAe Tempest is no where ready to fly. Those are the only three stealth fighters available. Roll Eyes

The Russian Su57 has never come up against the J35.
I wonder what what would happen?
There are no Su57s in the Middle East.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/29024/No_Middle_East_Nation_Interested_in_Russ...

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #19 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:33pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:28pm:

lee wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 3:35pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 10:26am:

It is stealthy - "stealthy" means it is invisible to radar and to a lesser extent, infra-red tracking systems.

perhaps not.

"“Invisible”? Apparently Not – F-35 Stealth Fighter Tracked by Website in Real Time"

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/war-articles/f-35-stealth-fighter-plane.html

"Experimental German radar 'tracked two U.S. F-35 stealth jet for 100 MILES' after lying in wait on a pony farm to catch them flying home from airshow"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7522413/German-radar-tracked-two...

The F-35s had their transponders switched on, Lee. Why do you think that was? Perhaps because ATC had to track where they were, whereas in wartime, they'd turn it off, to confuse the enemy as to where their location was. Roll Eyes

The person on the ground was picking up other radar reflections
that had reflected off the skin of the aircraft.

F-35s are stealthy to radar directed at them from the head on perspective, Bobby. The radars in question were directed at them from a tail on perspective and they had their transponders switched on. Most modern ATC radars actually work via transponders, not radar energy. Roll Eyes

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2021 at 12:32pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #20 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:42pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:33pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:17pm:

If the Americans complain about them, and there's been a few, why wouldn't we suffer from the F35's shortcomings? The massive cost of these planes will escalate over time, like everything else that goes over budget

They've been "pushed" onto allies of the US, if the OP is correct. There'd be only one reason for that, getting the allies to share in the mega billions of dollars of development of the F35. We are suckers, these planes will lie idle in hangers for long periods, just because the NWO think we should have them. They cost a mint to fly them for just one hour, A$50,000. How many are we getting, 70 or so

And here is something I challenge all critics of the F-35 programme with. "What alternatives are there, which are as effective and as advanced as the F-35 which are available to the RAAF?" Well, here's a chance to hear your suggestions. There is nothing as developed and as available as the F-35 programme. The only way to take part in it is either hand over oodles and oodles of cash or hand over a lot less and be a part of the construction programme. The Russian Su57 is not as advanced. The Chinese J-20 fighter is not as advanced. The BAe Tempest is no where ready to fly. Those are the only three stealth fighters available. Roll Eyes

The Russian Su57 has never come up against the J35.
I wonder what what would happen?

The Su57 would come off the worse for it, Bobby. Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #21 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:46pm

lee wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:35pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:28pm:

The F-35s had their transponders switched on, Lee.

Did they? Proof? Wink

How do you think ATC radars work, Lee?

Radars rely on aircraft transponders to identify the aircraft. Radars actually display the transponder data, not the radar reflection. Radar reflections are actually relatively short range, except for military ones, because they lack the energy required to do it. It is cheaper that way and people don't complain about the TVs and radios not working properly... Funny that, hey? Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Bobby.

Moderator

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 104180
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #22 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:51pm

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:39pm:

F-35s are stealthy to radar directed at them from the head on perspective, Bobby. The radars in question were directed at them from a tail on perspective and they had their transponders switched on. Most modern ATV radars actually work via transponders, not radar energy. Roll Eyes

Stealth works best by not reflecting back any radar
signal back to the source of the transmitter.
The F35 is very good at that however it can reflect
signals from another source at a different angle
to the observer.
That is the weakness used in this case.

The F35 has ferromagnetic paint -
basically ferrite material -
mixed with the paint to absorb radar transmissions
but it can't stop all reflections as
the ground radar transmitters can have gigawatt pulses.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #23 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:03pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:39pm:

F-35s are stealthy to radar directed at them from the head on perspective, Bobby. The radars in question were directed at them from a tail on perspective and they had their transponders switched on. Most modern ATV radars actually work via transponders, not radar energy. Roll Eyes

Stealth works best by not reflecting back any radar
signal back to the source of the transmitter.
The F35 is very good at that however it can reflect
signals from another source at a different angle
to the observer.
That is the weakness used in this case.

The F35 has ferromagnetic paint -
basically ferrite material -
mixed with the paint to absorb radar transmissions
but it can't stop all reflections as
the ground radar transmitters can have gigawatt pulses.

You mean they just paint them and they just disappear? Who'd have thunk it, hey, Bobby? Dulux Paint can just fix it all, right? Roll Eyes

In reality, a great deal of effort in the "stealth" field goes into "shaping" the aircraft's design so as to not reflect the radar signal. If you look at the early efforts as stealth, you see angular, straight edges. As the theory and practice developed (and the computer power increased) more curved shapes predominate. Stealthy coatings decrease and the reliance is more on the shape. Interestingly, they still have difficulties "fixing" the fuselage shape. Seems there is usually a "gap" in the design, which follows the fuselage... Roll Eyes

Do you know where stealth was developed, Bobby?

I expect not. Do you know who first theorized the idea? I suspect not. It was Pyotr Ufimtsev - a Russian. Who applied the first stealthy coating? The British, on a Canberra bomber in the mid-1960s. Funny that, hey? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2021 at 12:33pm by Brian Ross »

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

lee

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 17509
Gender: male

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #24 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:46pm:

Radars rely on aircraft transponders to identify the aircraft.

Nope. Aircraft identification is a different beast. A Friend or Foe type situation. Radar relies on Reflected Radio waves. Not on Transmissions from aircraft.

And of course we have Over-The-Horizon-RADAR to enhance distance.

Back to top

IP Logged

Bobby.

Moderator

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 104180
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #25 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:10pm

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:03pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:39pm:

F-35s are stealthy to radar directed at them from the head on perspective, Bobby. The radars in question were directed at them from a tail on perspective and they had their transponders switched on. Most modern ATV radars actually work via transponders, not radar energy. Roll Eyes

Stealth works best by not reflecting back any radar
signal back to the source of the transmitter.
The F35 is very good at that however it can reflect
signals from another source at a different angle
to the observer.
That is the weakness used in this case.

The F35 has ferromagnetic paint -
basically ferrite material -
mixed with the paint to absorb radar transmissions
but it can't stop all reflections as
the ground radar transmitters can have gigawatt pulses.

You mean they just paint them and they just disappear? Who'd have thunk it, hey, Bobby? Dulux Paint can just fix it all, right? Roll Eyes

In reality, a great deal of effort in the "stealth" field goes into "shaping" the aircraft's design so as to no reflect the radar signal. If you look at the early efforts as stealth, you seem angular, straight edges. As the theory and practice developed (and the computer power increased) more curved shapes predominate. Stealthy coatings decrease and the reliance is more on the shape. Interestingly, they still have difficulties "fixing" the fuselage shape. Seems there is usually a "gap" in the design, which follows the fuselage... Roll Eyes

Do you know where stealth was developed, Bobby?

I expect not. Do you know who first theorized the idea? I suspect not. It was Pyotr Ufimtsev - a Russian. Who applied the first stealthy coating? The British, on a Canberra bomber in the mid-1960s. Funny that, hey? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Brian,
I guarantee that I know a lot more about radar than you.
No paint coating is perfect.
No shape is perfect at least not to Gigawatt pulses.

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #26 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:39pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:10pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:03pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:51pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 4:39pm:

F-35s are stealthy to radar directed at them from the head on perspective, Bobby. The radars in question were directed at them from a tail on perspective and they had their transponders switched on. Most modern ATV radars actually work via transponders, not radar energy. Roll Eyes

Stealth works best by not reflecting back any radar
signal back to the source of the transmitter.
The F35 is very good at that however it can reflect
signals from another source at a different angle
to the observer.
That is the weakness used in this case.

The F35 has ferromagnetic paint -
basically ferrite material -
mixed with the paint to absorb radar transmissions
but it can't stop all reflections as
the ground radar transmitters can have gigawatt pulses.

You mean they just paint them and they just disappear? Who'd have thunk it, hey, Bobby? Dulux Paint can just fix it all, right? Roll Eyes

In reality, a great deal of effort in the "stealth" field goes into "shaping" the aircraft's design so as to no reflect the radar signal. If you look at the early efforts as stealth, you seem angular, straight edges. As the theory and practice developed (and the computer power increased) more curved shapes predominate. Stealthy coatings decrease and the reliance is more on the shape. Interestingly, they still have difficulties "fixing" the fuselage shape. Seems there is usually a "gap" in the design, which follows the fuselage... Roll Eyes

Do you know where stealth was developed, Bobby?

I expect not. Do you know who first theorized the idea? I suspect not. It was Pyotr Ufimtsev - a Russian. Who applied the first stealthy coating? The British, on a Canberra bomber in the mid-1960s. Funny that, hey? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Brian,
I guarantee that I know a lot more about radar than you.
No paint coating is perfect.
No shape is perfect at least not to Gigawatt pulses.

Care to name a radar set that has power in that range, Bobby? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Bobby. Moderator Offline Australian Politics Posts: 104180 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The F35 environment Reply #27 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:42pm Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:39pm: Care to name a radar set that has power in that range, Bobby? Tsk, tsk. A radar at any international airport - they can pick up an aircraft 220 miles away.
Back to top	IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 41617

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #28 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 7:15pm

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:42pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:39pm:

Care to name a radar set that has power in that range, Bobby? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

A radar at any international airport -
they can pick up an aircraft 220 miles away.

So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it? Really, Bobby?

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. There are no gigawatt power radars anywhere in the world, Bobby. You do know that, though, oh, radar man? Roll Eyes

Back to top

Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Bobby.

Moderator

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 104180
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: The F35 environment
Reply #29 - Mar 13^th, 2021 at 7:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 7:15pm:

Bobby. wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:42pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13^th, 2021 at 5:39pm:

Care to name a radar set that has power in that range, Bobby? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

A radar at any international airport -
they can pick up an aircraft 220 miles away.

So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it? Really, Bobby?

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. There are no gigawatt power radars anywhere in the world, Bobby. You do know that, though, oh, radar man? Roll Eyes

Brian -
apologise:

You need to research peak pulse power as opposed to average power
and effective radiated directional power.

page 6 of 25

https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/compendium/2700.00-2900.00_01MA...

If two or more ASR systems are used at an airport, they must be separated by at least 30 MHz.5 As a general rule, other radar systems operating in the band 2700-2900 MHz are not permitted to be located within radio line-of-sight of an ASR system, unless there is a 10 MHz separation between their operating frequencies.
All of the existing versions of the ASR system generate high-power pulsed radio frequency signals, using tube-output devices.6 The ASR systems all employ high gain directional gain antennas. The equivalent isotropically radiated power (EIRP) can be on the order of 1x109 watts, or a Gigawatt for the ASR systems.7 The ASR systems employ a low duty cycle pulsed waveform which allows compatible operation with other radar systems in the band using smaller frequency and distance separations.8 The ASR-11 takes advantage of the latest advances in radar design employing solid-state technology to produce the required power level.

Back to top

IP Logged