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The F35 environment (Read 3662 times)
lee
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #30 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 8:03pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 7:15pm:
So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it? 



You forgot an important rider. It was the term Pulse.

It is not average power. Wink
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #31 - Mar 13th, 2021 at 8:08pm
 
lee wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 8:03pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 7:15pm:
So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it? 



You forgot an important rider. It was the term Pulse.

It is not average power. Wink



Non technical people always get mixed up with that.
Example -
if you have a 1 watt average power over 1 second and you
dissipate all that power in a micro second
then the peak pulse power is a megawatt.
1 watt is a Joule per second.
That's what happens when you discharge a capacitor quickly.

Radar uses short powerful pulses typically only 2 microseconds long
but they pack enormous power into that short
period of time.
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Brian Ross
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #32 - Mar 14th, 2021 at 12:31pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 8:08pm:
lee wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 8:03pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 7:15pm:
So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it? 



You forgot an important rider. It was the term Pulse.

It is not average power. Wink



Non technical people always get mixed up with that.
Example -
if you have a 1 watt average power over 1 second and you
dissipate all that power in a micro second
then the peak pulse power is a megawatt.
1 watt is a Joule per second.
That's what happens when you discharge a capacitor quickly.

Radar uses short powerful pulses typically only 2 microseconds long
but they pack enormous power into that short
period of time.


You still haven't name a single Radar set within that range, Bobby.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #33 - Mar 14th, 2021 at 1:43pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 7:15pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 5:42pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 5:39pm:
Care to name a radar set that has power in that range, Bobby?  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


A radar at any international airport -
they can pick up an aircraft 220 miles away.


So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it?  Really, Bobby?

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  There are no gigawatt power radars anywhere in the world, Bobby.  You do know that, though, oh, radar man?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Brian -
apologise:

You need to research peak pulse power as opposed to average power
and effective radiated directional power.

page 6 of 25

https://www.ntia.doc.gov/files/ntia/publications/compendium/2700.00-2900.00_01MA...


If two or more ASR systems are used at an airport, they must be separated by at least 30 MHz.5 As a general rule, other radar systems operating in the band 2700-2900 MHz are not permitted to be located within radio line-of-sight of an ASR system, unless there is a 10 MHz separation between their operating frequencies.
All of the existing versions of the ASR system generate high-power pulsed radio frequency signals, using tube-output devices.6 The ASR systems all employ high gain directional gain antennas. The equivalent isotropically radiated power (EIRP) can be on the order of 1x109 watts, or a Gigawatt for the ASR systems.7 The ASR systems employ a low duty cycle pulsed waveform which allows compatible operation with other radar systems in the band using smaller frequency and distance separations.8 The ASR-11 takes advantage of the latest advances in radar design employing solid-state technology to produce the required power level.
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #34 - Mar 14th, 2021 at 1:46pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 14th, 2021 at 12:31pm:
You still haven't name a single Radar set within that range, Bobby.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




CSF Route Surveillance Radar Transmitter - 1960s-1990s.

http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/ML%20CSF%20TAR.htm

This photo shows the Melbourne Route Surveillance Radar (RSR), located in the transmitter building on Radar Hill, to the north-west of the runway intersection at Melbourne/Tullamarine Airport. There was a second, backup, transmitter adjacent to this one. Melbourne also had a very similar, duplicated Terminal Area Radar (TAR), of which one transmitter is preserved in the Airways Museum - click here to see and read about it.

This equipment, supplied by French company CSF (later Thomson-CSF), was the first 'standard' air traffic control radar equipment to be installed in Australia. The first of these long-range primary radars was commissioned at Sydney Airport in September 1962. They served Australia’s capital city airports until the early 1990s. The Melbourne radars were in service from 1966 to 1992.

From the early 1970s, the long-range primary radars were supplemented by Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR).

This RSR was replaced by a 250 NM monopulse SSR located on Mount Macedon.

These radars were used with the Bright Display and ATCARDS air traffic control display systems.


Specification:
Manufacturer      Compagnie Générale de Télégraphie Sans Fil (CSF)
Range      120 NM, later 160 NM
Frequency range      1300 MHz and 1345 MHz (frequency diversity)
Output power      2 Megawatts
Pulse width      

1.5 microseconds


http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/navaids%20images/CSF-radar-ML.jpg
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Brian Ross
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #35 - Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:31pm
 
Good enough, Bobby.  Of course that shows you can search the web, your Google-fu is strong.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #36 - Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:41pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:31pm:
Good enough, Bobby.  Of course that shows you can search the web, your Google-fu is strong.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes




How about an apology Brian?
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #37 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:38am
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:41pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:31pm:
Good enough, Bobby.  Of course that shows you can search the web, your Google-fu is strong.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


How about an apology Brian?


For what?  Doubting your claims?  Yet when I demand an apology from you, you remain silent on your wrong doing.  I'm just following your example, Bobby.  Correct your mistakes and apologise for them and I might be willing to apologise for my errors.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #38 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:46am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:38am:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:41pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:31pm:
Good enough, Bobby.  Of course that shows you can search the web, your Google-fu is strong.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


How about an apology Brian?


For what?  Doubting your claims?  Yet when I demand an apology from you, you remain silent on your wrong doing.  I'm just following your example, Bobby.  Correct your mistakes and apologise for them and I might be willing to apologise for my errors.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



You're a doubting Thomas -
you make me prove every claim and then you don't apologise when your doubts are proven wrong.


Brian,
Quote:
So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it?  Really, Bobby?

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  There are no gigawatt power radars anywhere in the world, Bobby.  You do know that, though, oh, radar man?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #39 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:49am
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:46am:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:38am:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:41pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 15th, 2021 at 4:31pm:
Good enough, Bobby.  Of course that shows you can search the web, your Google-fu is strong.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


How about an apology Brian?


For what?  Doubting your claims?  Yet when I demand an apology from you, you remain silent on your wrong doing.  I'm just following your example, Bobby.  Correct your mistakes and apologise for them and I might be willing to apologise for my errors.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



You're a doubting Thomas -
you make me prove every claim and then you don't apologise when your doubts are proven wrong.


Brian,
Quote:
So, "a radar at any international airport," is in the "gigawatt" range of power, is it?  Really, Bobby?

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  There are no gigawatt power radars anywhere in the world, Bobby.  You do know that, though, oh, radar man?   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

...

You set the standard, Bobby.  Unwilling to live by it?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #40 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:57am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 11:49am:
https://emojipedia-us.s3.dualstack.us-west-1.amazonaws.com/thumbs/120/google/223...

You set the standard, Bobby.  Unwilling to live by it?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Brian,
when have I ever doubted you?
If anything I've always reminded people here of your
numerous degrees and you doctor of Divinity.

you are forgiven
according to the divine plan
namaste
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #41 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 1:14pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 10:26am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 9:12am:
Why are we buying them? We can't afford a lemon like that. We should cancel the order before we go completely broke


Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  McFate is a true ground pounder with a ground pounder's ideas on what constitutes "warfare".  He is dismissive of the F-35's abilities which he obviously doesn't understand.  It is stealthy - "stealthy" means it is invisible to radar and to a lesser extent, infra-red tracking systems.  It is part of an integrated systems approach to warfare - which means it is part of a system which is combined to create a package of aircraft that can outmanoeuvre enemy aircraft strategically.  It has advanced EO (Electro-Optics) system which effectively allows the pilot to "see through" the aircraft and which automatically spots any missile launches against it.  It has an advanced mission management system which allows it to integrate closely and automatically with AEW&C aircraft.   

Basically it is a generation ahead of any aircraft presently flying, including the F-22.  The days that fighter aircraft take on one another, individually died at the end of WWI and was effectively killed in WWII.  Today, fighters fight as a unit, not single planes.   This ability has all come at a cost.  Fighters are the top of the line aircraft and so cost more than bombers and CAS aircraft.   

The reason why we, Australia, is buying these aircraft is because there isn't anything out there that even comes close to the F-35 in capability. No Russian, no Chinese, no British, no Japanese, nothing.  RAAF has long attempted to structure itself as a leading air force in our region.  We purchased the F-86/CA-27, the Mirage IIIO, the F-111 and the F/A-18 because they were better than what anybody else had, in the region.  The F-35 continues that trend.

Now, Bobby, why isn't this in the Defence Forum?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



And Brian knocks two birds with one stone.  Grin
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #42 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 1:16pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:19pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 10:26am:
Now, Bobby, why isn't this in the Defence Forum?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Because not only me but other posters have complained
that you delete on topic posts at your MRB.

He does have a point Brian and Bobby can post topics that he likes in his own Board, but I would think this Topic is best suited to Defense Board.

...you may need to compromise a bit Brian.  Wink
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #43 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 1:42pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:33pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 4:17pm:
If the Americans complain about them, and there's been a few, why wouldn't we suffer from the F35's shortcomings? The massive cost of these planes will escalate over time, like everything else that goes over budget

They've been "pushed" onto allies of the US, if the OP is correct. There'd be only one reason for that, getting the allies to share in the mega billions of dollars of development of the F35. We are suckers, these planes will lie idle in hangers for long periods, just because the NWO think we should have them. They cost a mint to fly them for just one hour, A$50,000. How many are we getting, 70 or so


And here is something I challenge all critics of the F-35 programme with. "What alternatives are there, which are as effective and as advanced as the F-35 which are available to the RAAF?"  Well, here's a chance to hear your suggestions.  There is nothing as developed and as available as the F-35 programme.  The only way to take part in it is either hand over oodles and oodles of cash or hand over a lot less and be a part of the construction programme.   The Russian Su57 is not as advanced.  The Chinese J-20 fighter is not as advanced. The BAe Tempest is no where ready to fly.  Those are the only three stealth fighters available.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


Now my turn. Those F-35's might be the bees knees of the USA Airforce Innovation (America is the best in the Air: Eagle) and I don't deny their capability.
But considering we have some of the best Drone Innovators in the world. Shouldn't we be perfecting these for a much cheaper contingency plan that could prove effective? We win a lot at the International Drone Comps. We need to build upon this.

The cost of the F-35's is not cheap, in fact - they're very very expensive.
If I was China, I would just missile Australia's 'Control' installations to make these things fly as I'm sure they might be dependent to some ground control (?).

I gather the purchase of these in a time of Peace, means that we are readying for WAR.
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Bobby.
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Re: The F35 environment
Reply #44 - Mar 16th, 2021 at 4:01pm
 
Jasin wrote on Mar 16th, 2021 at 1:16pm:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 1:19pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Mar 13th, 2021 at 10:26am:
Now, Bobby, why isn't this in the Defence Forum?  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



Because not only me but other posters have complained
that you delete on topic posts at your MRB.

He does have a point Brian and Bobby can post topics that he likes in his own Board, but I would think this Topic is best suited to Defense Board.

...you may need to compromise a bit Brian.  Wink



Brian has to stop being a dictator and
start being a moderator.
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