Australian Politics Forum - The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia

freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #240 - Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 3^rd, 2022 at 1:48pm:

freediver wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2022 at 1:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 18^th, 2022 at 1:48pm:

who is the nail in your analogy FD? Who is the apprentice? I'll give you a hint - its got something to do with hate speech and incitement to violence, and your contradictory position on it. A position I have gone to great pains to spell out to you.

And before you say it - yes it is an analogy.

Here's how I interpret the analogy:

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom? = should the necessary right of free speech be held liable for bad things that might happen because of it - like violence?

Just a simple confirmation that this is the analogy you meant would be a great start - or maybe I am getting something wrong? Unfortunately though, the problem with using this analogy as your answer to my question - is that it doesn't actually answer my question - as I have already pointed out in great detail - ad-infinitum.

It's not an analogy Gandalf. It is a proverb. I have already explained that the nail is an analogy for a nail. It would be a fool's errand to try to turn each item in the proverb into an analogy for something. So stop trying.

Quote:

For want of a nail, the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe, the horse was lost.
For want of a horse, the king was lost.
For want of a king, the battle was lost.
For want of a battle, the kingdom was lost,
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

In your eternal quest to be as inane as humanly possible, you've completely forgotten the subject FD.

Why bring up the proverb if you insist so vehemently its not in any way an analogy? Can you at least answer that?

Because by answering it you will discover a principle. Or not.

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #241 - Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

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issuevoter

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #242 - Nov 13^th, 2022 at 2:42pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

Utter, Western multicultural revisionist rubbish. To be a Muzlum, you have to believe the Koran is the word of God, as given to Mo by an angel. Its not for you to reinterpret for them, to make Islam more acceptable to us.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #243 - Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:02pm

issuevoter wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 2:42pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

Utter, Western multicultural revisionist rubbish. To be a Muzlum, you have to believe the Koran is the word of God, as given to Mo by an angel. Its not for you to reinterpret for them, to make Islam more acceptable to us.

The current debate is the question of compulsion in religion, for which freediver (frauddiver) wants examples.

All religious texts contain compulsion eg "(Joshua) destroyed everything that breathed, as commanded by the Lord God of Israel". (Joshua 10, 40).

and OT proclaimed stoning to death of adulterers.. fortunately ignored by most people today...

Yet Folau causes merry havoc with his OT-based proclamations....and Rabin's murderer was acting on OT mythology about the "Promised Land".

So intelligent Muslims (not ISIS..) like intelligent Jews and Christians must ignore large swathes of their respective scriptures.

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #244 - Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:24pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

Does this question make sense to you, or are you not allowed to ask it in China?

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #245 - Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:39pm

freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

Does this question make sense to you, or are you not allowed to ask it in China?

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

So is God the apprentice? Obviously not; yet he commanded obsolete (and now illegal) punishment for wrongdoers.

See the limitations of analogies?

As to an answer to the literal question: both the apprentice and the kingdom are responsible for their fall, because the nail cannot be claimed to be the sole support of the kingdom. ....

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 83299 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #246 - Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #247 - Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

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Bias_2012

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #248 - Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:49pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

Hang on a minute ... why are Afghanis and Iraqis fleeing to the US and it's allies if the US is that bad? You'd stay away wouldn't ya?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #249 - Nov 15^th, 2022 at 1:06pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

Hang on a minute ... why are Afghanis and Iraqis fleeing to the US and it's allies if the US is that bad? You'd stay away wouldn't ya?

Because they - some of whom co-operated with the US - had the chance to seek refuge in 1st world countries, after the US destroyed the economies of their home nations.

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freediver

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #250 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:54am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:39pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 3:24pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 13^th, 2022 at 10:49am:

freediver wrote on Nov 12^th, 2022 at 4:03pm:

Is it possible for Muslims to have principles that don't come Muhammad's excuses for rape and pillage?

Is it possible for you to at least pose a question that makes sense?

But it is possible for non-fundamentalist/non-literalist Muslims to claim and act on Islam as being a religion of peace, as it is possible for followers of all religions to claim....since 'God loves mankind'.....

Does this question make sense to you, or are you not allowed to ask it in China?

Should the apprentice who erred in making the nail be held liable for the loss of the kingdom?

So is God the apprentice? Obviously not; yet he commanded obsolete (and now illegal) punishment for wrongdoers.

See the limitations of analogies?

As to an answer to the literal question: both the apprentice and the kingdom are responsible for their fall, because the nail cannot be claimed to be the sole support of the kingdom. ....

That's why it I keep saying it is not an analogy and it is a fools errand to try to turn it into one. So I am not surprised at your efforts.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 101795 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia Reply #251 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 9:58am Hi FD, thegreatdivide has a faulty avatar picture that loads up the page and makes it bounce losing my position when trying to read a page. https://www.ozpolitic.com/yabbfiles/Templates/Forum/brown/noimg.gif Can you fix it please? - I asked him but he did nothing to remove it.
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Frank

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #252 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 10:06am

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 1:06pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

Hang on a minute ... why are Afghanis and Iraqis fleeing to the US and it's allies if the US is that bad? You'd stay away wouldn't ya?

Because they - some of whom co-operated with the US - had the chance to seek refuge in 1st world countries, after the US destroyed the economies of their home nations.

Bollocks.

https://www.ft.com/content/bfdb94a5-654b-4286-8da9-34c0ff3b88aa

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thegreatdivide

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #253 - Nov 20^th, 2022 at 11:38am

Frank wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 10:06am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 1:06pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

Hang on a minute ... why are Afghanis and Iraqis fleeing to the US and it's allies if the US is that bad? You'd stay away wouldn't ya?

Because they - some of whom co-operated with the US - had the chance to seek refuge in 1st world countries, after the US destroyed the economies of their home nations.

Bollocks.

https://www.ft.com/content/bfdb94a5-654b-4286-8da9-34c0ff3b88aa

Care to summarize the argument?

Obviously people would prefer to live in the country of their birth; lack of a functional economy (war, geopolitics, resource competition) forces them to leave.

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issuevoter

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Re: The Best Way to Combat Islamophobia
Reply #254 - Nov 21^st, 2022 at 5:10pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 11:38am:

Frank wrote on Nov 20^th, 2022 at 10:06am:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 1:06pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:49pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 15^th, 2022 at 12:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Nov 14^th, 2022 at 10:20pm:

Ship all Muslims back home and declare your country a Muslim free zone.

Better yet, end vicious US-led hegemonic global neoliberalism; and engender prosperous development in all nations (which is what Xi is saying in Bali....), and then Afghanis and Iraqis wouldn't need to flee to Oz, the EU and N. America.

Hang on a minute ... why are Afghanis and Iraqis fleeing to the US and it's allies if the US is that bad? You'd stay away wouldn't ya?

Because they - some of whom co-operated with the US - had the chance to seek refuge in 1st world countries, after the US destroyed the economies of their home nations.

Bollocks.

https://www.ft.com/content/bfdb94a5-654b-4286-8da9-34c0ff3b88aa

Care to summarize the argument?

Obviously people would prefer to live in the country of their birth; lack of a functional economy (war, geopolitics, resource competition) forces them to leave.

I do not think it is obvious, or even true. Many people chose to go somewhere else, and not necessarily for economic or political reasons. Some places are more interesting than others. Some places have a better climate. The food is better in some countries than others. Some people are more adventurous than stay-at-home dullards.

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