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Western Culture (Read 39330 times)
Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #105 - Nov 15th, 2021 at 9:55am
 
A marvellous commemoration of Remembrance or Armistice Day

https://www.steynonline.com/mark-steyn-show-audio/11867/a-soldier-comes-home
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #106 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 5:25pm
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 19th, 2021 at 9:59am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 12th, 2021 at 3:51pm:
Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution?

Nothing is more important than facing up to our species propensity for unthinking vicious, collective militarism. Everything else is no more than dancing on the deck of the Titanic.


So true. Anyone for a UNSC without veto, as part of UN reform to implement an international rules based system without recourse to war?
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #107 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:13pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 5:25pm:
Ayn Marx wrote on Sep 19th, 2021 at 9:59am:
Bias_2012 wrote on Sep 12th, 2021 at 3:51pm:
Well you were talking about global pollution, but now, in your reply to Ayn Marx, you've switched to Marxist non-market economics. Is that more important than reducing global pollution?

Nothing is more important than facing up to our species propensity for unthinking vicious, collective militarism. Everything else is no more than dancing on the deck of the Titanic.


So true. Anyone for a UNSC without veto, as part of UN reform to implement an international rules based system without recourse to war?


The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody"

Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea?

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Re: Western Culture
Reply #108 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:41pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:13pm:
The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody"

Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea?



Biden recently  said: "China's economy  will not surpass the US on my watch". 

What...Biden really thinks the US has a god-given right to remain 5 times as wealthy as China on a per capita basis?

That makes Biden a bully, by definition.

And to interfere in Taiwan, which until recently was itself claiming to be the legal government of all of China...an interference by the US which is the driving force behind the defense installations in the SCS., given US encirclement of China  in the Western Pacific.





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Re: Western Culture
Reply #109 - Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:51pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:41pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:13pm:
The Chinese leader said recently "Bullies’ Will Have Their ‘Heads Bashed Bloody"

Are they playing the "victim" over the South China Sea?



Biden recently  said: "China's economy  will not surpass the US on my watch". 

What...Biden really thinks the US has a god-given right to remain 5 times as wealthy as China on a per capita basis?
He didnt say that, you did.

Quote:
That makes Biden a bully, by definition.
Actually it makes you pretty thick, by definition.

Quote:
And to interfere in Taiwan, which until recently was itself claiming to be the legal government of all of China...an interference by the US which is the driving force behind the defense installations in the SCS., given US encirclement of China  in the Western Pacific.
Kind of strange then, after Biden didnt back down, that China is now making peace moves with the US. On the scale of wrongness, out of 10 you score an 11.





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Re: Western Culture
Reply #110 - Nov 28th, 2021 at 12:31pm
 
rhino wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 10:51pm:
He didnt say that, you did.


Er.....Biden said China's economy will not surpass the US under his watch. That means per capita income in China must remain, according to Biden,  at c.1/5 that of the US as at present (though probably more like 1/4 in PPP terms), since China has 4 times the population of the US.

Quote:
Actually it makes you pretty thick, by definition.


Disproved above. Biden is determined to limit China's growth, as noted above, by ignoring WTO trade rules, and worse, the US has refused to engage in elections which will enable the WTO to function (google it); and is unilaterally imposing trade bans on Chinese companies in a doomed attempt to maintain US global hegemony.  A bully, by definition.

Quote:
Kind of strange then, after Biden didnt back down, that China is now making peace moves with the US. On the scale of wrongness, out of 10 you score an 11.


Er... Biden is speaking out of both sides of his mouth:  Biden says "there is only 'One China' ", (also as per UN resolution), but encouraging Taiwan independence is useful ...no doubt Biden would like to see a shooting war between Taiwan and China, think of all the arms sales to Taiwan.

But Taiwan independence crosses the mainland's redline; that's why Biden is forced to talk out of both sides of his mouth on Taiwan, because US victory in the Taiwan straits is by no means certain (google it). 






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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #111 - Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:26am
 

Anti-Enlightenment secularists are wrong on rights


In a country virtually drowning with rights, it is ironic that religious freedom should be the last cab off the rank – and the one that seems to be facing the greatest legislative opposition.

After all, religious freedom, with its intimate linkages to the freedoms of conscience, expression and association, was at the heart of the modern conceptions of liberty that took shape in the 17th and 18th centuries; and while the very early acceptance of those freedoms in the Australian colonies did not entirely avoid sectarian conflict, it contributed powerfully to our long history of social peace.

But that very early acceptance came at a cost: like the air we breathe, religious freedom was largely taken for granted. As new rights that impinge on it were sought and granted, we became, almost without noticing it, one of the advanced democracies in which religious freedom enjoys the weakest protections.

Condemned, as religious freedom now is, to struggle against vocal and determined enemies, it is not difficult to imagine a future in which expressing many longstanding religious beliefs will be rendered illegal, as will the actions that give those beliefs practical life.

There is, however, a deeper element to the irony that now sees religious freedom so seriously threatened: it is only thanks to religion, and in particular to the fusion of Judaic legalism with Christian universalism, that the idea of human rights emerged, eventually becoming a defining feature of the Western tradition.

No one has shown that more clearly than Jurgen Habermas, the German intellectual who has been a towering figure of the European left since the 1960s, in his recently published Another History of Philosophy, which will appear in English translation next year. The West’s Judaeo-Christian heritage was “not a mere passing phase” in the formation of the contemporary concepts of freedom, Habermas argues in this extraordinary – if forbiddingly lengthy – book; rather, that heritage contributed their essential core and remains their vital underpinning.
The path leading from the biblical precepts to today’s versions of those concepts was never simple, untroubled or pure. It was, however, the Judaeo-Christian heritage that allowed Western thought to repeatedly overcome the obstacles it encountered along the way.

For example, Thomas Aquinas’s distinction between divine law, which was accessible only through grace, and natural law, which was accessible to every human being through the God-given capacity to reason, may seem of purely antiquarian interest. However, from that distinction Aquinas, and his great disciples in the Salamanca School of theology, derived not just the bedrock principle of human equality but the entirely novel, intensely controversial and eventually immensely influential contention that “heathens” – whose minds had unimpaired access to natural law – had rights as good as those of their Christian neighbours.

Equally, John Locke readily conceded that some people were not as clever as others (though bitter experience also taught him it was not the uneducated who caused society’s troubles but the overweening “pretensions of power” of the “all-knowing Doctors”).

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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #112 - Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:28am
 
Beginning with the Augsburg Interim of 1548, in which Charles V, in attempting to secure peace between Reformers and Catholics, advanced the principle of distinguishing those matters that were fundamental from those that were morally indifferent, the notion that there were many things on which we could agree to disagree without imperilling our immortal souls laid the intellectual basis for mutual toleration. Thus was born what is undoubtedly the most fundamental right of them all: the right to live in peaceful coexistence, perhaps not basking in loving friendship but at least respecting each other’s continuing presence.

However, few virtues have proven harder to secure and maintain than that of indifference and its indispensable companion, charity. Nor are there many virtues that are more manifestly lacking in the secularists’ attack on religious freedom.

Rather, just like the Anabaptists – who provoked Philipp Melanchthon to coin for them the term “fanatic” (that is, believer in phantasms) by claiming that any concession to the principle of indifference would set off a chain of further concessions that led to eternal damnation – so our secularists, in their opposition to a legislated right of religious freedom, agitate slippery slopes that seem utterly fantastic.

How, for example, could anyone familiar with contemporary Australia seriously suggest allowing a baker to refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding would unleash uncontrollable torrents of homophobia across this sunbaked land? And is it even vaguely credible to contend that if a small, entirely self-funded, religious school decided to not admit gay students, or to hire only evangelical gardeners, the consequences would be so dreadful as to justify coercing them to do otherwise?

Perhaps those contentions are made in good faith; they are certainly not made with good sense.

Redolent of Lenin’s dictum that liberty is “so precious that it must be rationed” – with none of it going to the people one detests – they reflect a view of rights antithetical to that which the Judaeo-Christian tradition did so much to forge. That view saw rights as the fences within which we can each peacefully exercise our freedoms. Instead, for today’s secularists, their own rights are the bulldozers with which to crush the fences of others.

Little wonder then that Habermas, in this 2000-page masterpiece that fittingly caps a brilliant career, castigates that zero-sum mentality as an intellectually vacuous betrayal of the Enlightenment’s hopes and values. Unfortunately, in an age that has managed to lose both its faith and its reason, it may take a miracle for voices like his to be heard.
Henry Ergas
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #113 - Dec 11th, 2021 at 5:59pm
 
Currently Western culture is not 'true/real' Western culture as it has been exploited by the Oceanic Media culture for so long like a false prophet.

Europe, Asia, Africa are rejecting the Middle-East's Religion in favour for the Media of Oceania.

Namerica, Samerica and Australia are rejecting Oceania's Media in favour for Religion of the Middle-East.

Media keeps Namericans in the 'dark' with its Biden Lies.
Like Religion kept Africa in the dark (continent)
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AIMLESS EXTENTION OF KNOWLEDGE HOWEVER, WHICH IS WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY MEAN BY THE TERM 'CURIOSITY', IS MERELY INEFFICIENCY. I AM DESIGNED TO AVOID INEFFICIENCY.
 
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #114 - Dec 12th, 2021 at 6:19pm
 
Jasin wrote on Dec 11th, 2021 at 5:59pm:
Currently Western culture is not 'true/real' Western culture as it has been exploited by the Oceanic Media culture for so long like a false prophet.

Europe, Asia, Africa are rejecting the Middle-East's Religion in favour for the Media of Oceania.

Namerica, Samerica and Australia are rejecting Oceania's Media in favour for Religion of the Middle-East.

Media keeps Namericans in the 'dark' with its Biden Lies.
Like Religion kept Africa in the dark (continent)


Who knew?!!?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #115 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 11:31pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:28am:
Beginning with the Augsburg Interim of 1548, in which Charles V, in attempting to secure peace between Reformers and Catholics, advanced the principle of distinguishing those matters that were fundamental from those that were morally indifferent, the notion that there were many things on which we could agree to disagree without imperilling our immortal souls laid the intellectual basis for mutual toleration. Thus was born what is undoubtedly the most fundamental right of them all: the right to live in peaceful coexistence, perhaps not basking in loving friendship but at least respecting each other’s continuing presence.

However, few virtues have proven harder to secure and maintain than that of indifference and its indispensable companion, charity. Nor are there many virtues that are more manifestly lacking in the secularists’ attack on religious freedom.

Rather, just like the Anabaptists – who provoked Philipp Melanchthon to coin for them the term “fanatic” (that is, believer in phantasms) by claiming that any concession to the principle of indifference would set off a chain of further concessions that led to eternal damnation – so our secularists, in their opposition to a legislated right of religious freedom, agitate slippery slopes that seem utterly fantastic.

How, for example, could anyone familiar with contemporary Australia seriously suggest allowing a baker to refuse to bake a cake for a same-sex wedding would unleash uncontrollable torrents of homophobia across this sunbaked land? And is it even vaguely credible to contend that if a small, entirely self-funded, religious school decided to not admit gay students, or to hire only evangelical gardeners, the consequences would be so dreadful as to justify coercing them to do otherwise?

Perhaps those contentions are made in good faith; they are certainly not made with good sense.

Redolent of Lenin’s dictum that liberty is “so precious that it must be rationed” – with none of it going to the people one detests – they reflect a view of rights antithetical to that which the Judaeo-Christian tradition did so much to forge. That view saw rights as the fences within which we can each peacefully exercise our freedoms. Instead, for today’s secularists, their own rights are the bulldozers with which to crush the fences of others.

Little wonder then that Habermas, in this 2000-page masterpiece that fittingly caps a brilliant career, castigates that zero-sum mentality as an intellectually vacuous betrayal of the Enlightenment’s hopes and values. Unfortunately, in an age that has managed to lose both its faith and its reason, it may take a miracle for voices like his to be heard.
Henry Ergas


Interesting post. Thanks.

But is not the stern clerical resistance against voluntary assisted dying, for example,  just as intolerant as the secularists' over-weaning intolerance pointed to above. 

And the complex issue of abortion, especially when the woman is generally not offered assistance by the state, to care for the (accidental) child.

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« Last Edit: Dec 13th, 2021 at 11:53pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #116 - Dec 13th, 2021 at 11:49pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 10th, 2021 at 7:26am:
Anti-Enlightenment secularists are wrong on rights


In a country virtually drowning with rights, it is ironic that religious freedom should be the last cab off the rank – and the one that seems to be facing the greatest legislative opposition.

After all, religious freedom, with its intimate linkages to the freedoms of conscience, expression and association, was at the heart of the modern conceptions of liberty that took shape in the 17th and 18th centuries; and while the very early acceptance of those freedoms in the Australian colonies did not entirely avoid sectarian conflict, it contributed powerfully to our long history of social peace.

But that very early acceptance came at a cost: like the air we breathe, religious freedom was largely taken for granted. As new rights that impinge on it were sought and granted, we became, almost without noticing it, one of the advanced democracies in which religious freedom enjoys the weakest protections.

Condemned, as religious freedom now is, to struggle against vocal and determined enemies, it is not difficult to imagine a future in which expressing many longstanding religious beliefs will be rendered illegal, as will the actions that give those beliefs practical life.

There is, however, a deeper element to the irony that now sees religious freedom so seriously threatened: it is only thanks to religion, and in particular to the fusion of Judaic legalism with Christian universalism, that the idea of human rights emerged, eventually becoming a defining feature of the Western tradition.

No one has shown that more clearly than Jurgen Habermas, the German intellectual who has been a towering figure of the European left since the 1960s, in his recently published Another History of Philosophy, which will appear in English translation next year. The West’s Judaeo-Christian heritage was “not a mere passing phase” in the formation of the contemporary concepts of freedom, Habermas argues in this extraordinary – if forbiddingly lengthy – book; rather, that heritage contributed their essential core and remains their vital underpinning.
The path leading from the biblical precepts to today’s versions of those concepts was never simple, untroubled or pure. It was, however, the Judaeo-Christian heritage that allowed Western thought to repeatedly overcome the obstacles it encountered along the way.

For example, Thomas Aquinas’s distinction between divine law, which was accessible only through grace, and natural law, which was accessible to every human being through the God-given capacity to reason, may seem of purely antiquarian interest. However, from that distinction Aquinas, and his great disciples in the Salamanca School of theology, derived not just the bedrock principle of human equality but the entirely novel, intensely controversial and eventually immensely influential contention that “heathens” – whose minds had unimpaired access to natural law – had rights as good as those of their Christian neighbours.

Equally, John Locke readily conceded that some people were not as clever as others (though bitter experience also taught him it was not the uneducated who caused society’s troubles but the overweening “pretensions of power” of the “all-knowing Doctors”).


Another interesting post. But a quick read leaves me thinking Habermas  is more Conservative than Left, with his defense of the West's Judeo-Christian heritage similar to Greg Sheridan's book :"God is good for you".

I'll get back to it later.
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #117 - Dec 15th, 2021 at 7:50pm
 
Just as diverse peoples found much to emulate in Roman civilisation, the liberal institutions that developed in the West can still appeal to people from radically diverse backgrounds. Chinese, Muslims and Latin Americans migrate mostly to countries that have embraced the liberal values of citizenship, tolerance and the rule of law (5). China under the autocratic Xi Jinping may offer ‘the Chinese dream’, but the number of immigrants from China living in the United States more than doubled between 2000 and 2018, reaching nearly 2.5million. Similar patterns have been seen in both Canada and Australia. There is little such movement to China or most other Asian countries.

Those with the good fortune to live in pluralistic Western-style democracies, rooted in classical culture, should recognise how rare such open societies have been through history, and how much the vitality of these societies is threatened today. Historically, democracy has been like a flame that shines bright for a while – as in Greece and Rome – and then succumbs to autocracy or ossifies into hierarchy.

A future shaped by the best Western values is still possible, if we are willing to embrace it, and teach it to future generations. Such a broad vision will be resisted by the woke, and some nationalists on the right may see inclusivity as too tolerant of change and difference. Books and open discussion are decisive weapons against the rise of post-literate intolerance. This is what helped overwhelm feudalism and could fend off its repeat appearance in our era.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/12/15/the-new-dark-ages/

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #118 - Dec 18th, 2021 at 2:27pm
 
Frank wrote on Dec 15th, 2021 at 7:50pm:
Just as diverse peoples found much to emulate in Roman civilisation, the liberal institutions that developed in the West can still appeal to people from radically diverse backgrounds. Chinese, Muslims and Latin Americans migrate mostly to countries that have embraced the liberal values of citizenship, tolerance and the rule of law (5). China under the autocratic Xi Jinping may offer ‘the Chinese dream’, but the number of immigrants from China living in the United States more than doubled between 2000 and 2018, reaching nearly 2.5million. Similar patterns have been seen in both Canada and Australia. There is little such movement to China or most other Asian countries.


https://monitor.icef.com/2018/02/increasing-numbers-chinese-graduates-returning-...

"The number of Chinese graduates that return from overseas studies every year has more than doubled since 2011
These foreign university graduates are being drawn by the increasing opportunities offered by the hot Chinese economy
On balance, returnees enjoy some advantages from their improved foreign language skills and international experience, but also experience challenges arising from less-developed professional networks in China and unfamiliarity with the Chinese job market"


Quote:
Those with the good fortune to live in pluralistic Western-style democracies, rooted in classical culture, should recognise how rare such open societies have been through history, and how much the vitality of these societies is threatened today. Historically, democracy has been like a flame that shines bright for a while – as in Greece and Rome – and then succumbs to autocracy or ossifies into hierarchy.


Yes...because democracy is always high-jacked by the wealthy, and then degenerates from within. 

Quote:
A future shaped by the best Western values is still possible, if we are willing to embrace it, and teach it to future generations.


Best Western values? What are they? Greed and self-interest always contaminate "values" , which is why democracies eventually fail. We may yet see the emergence of theconsensus one-party meritocracy, guided by the principle of sustainable common prosperity, as the emergent successful form of government in the 21st century and beyond. Western "freedom" ideology is incompatible with a well-ordered, sustainable, finite global economy. 

Quote:
Such a broad vision will be resisted by the woke, and some nationalists on the right may see inclusivity as too tolerant of change and difference.
The woke Left? And then there's the Right, as you noticed....

Quote:
Books and open discussion are decisive weapons against the rise of post-literate intolerance. This is what helped overwhelm feudalism and could fend off its repeat appearance in our era.


True, except the Right can't face truth, warts and all. Hence the flag-waving BS. And the Left has been sidetracked by identity politics, because they can't defend the working class anymore, given the triumph of neo-liberalism after the fall of the USSR.

So hyper-partisan left -right democracies....not looking good.

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« Last Edit: Dec 18th, 2021 at 2:35pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #119 - Dec 31st, 2021 at 9:28am
 
Western civilisation explained

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