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Western Culture (Read 39362 times)
thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #210 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:16am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:45am:
And how many divisions will that UNSC have to enforce that new rules based system?
The current UN peacekeeping force is laughable.


Still incapable of understanding the contradiction between national sovereignty and an international rules-based system?

I'll try again: a UNSC without veto,  instituted to maintain the judgements of an ICJ (to uphold the UN UDHR), has 99.9% of the world's military force at its disposal.....

Understand now? 

Quote:
And China doesn't play by the current rules based system so why would it under some other system? 


China would in fact be part of the reformed UNSC speaking with one voice (without veto).

Quote:
Because it would be a system created by Chine, in its own image for its own 'sovereign' hegemonic interests. 


Nonsense. The system would be a (belated) realization - by ALL members of the UN - of Australia's own 'Doc' Evatt's prescription for a world without war, maintained by an international rules-based system.

Finally sweeping the concept of global hegemony via 'might is right', including  the obsolete concept of national sovereignty in a globalized world,  into the dust-bin of history.

 
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #211 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:34am
 
Are you a Chinese national and posting from China?

Are you a wumao?

Are you a Little Pink?
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #212 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:44am
 
An example of the CCP's propaganda slaves, known as wumao or little pinks.


...
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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #213 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 12:32pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:16am:
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:45am:
And how many divisions will that UNSC have to enforce that new rules based system?
The current UN peacekeeping force is laughable.


Still incapable of understanding the contradiction between national sovereignty and an international rules-based system?

I'll try again: a UNSC without veto,  instituted to maintain the judgements of an ICJ (to uphold the UN UDHR), has 99.9% of the world's military force at its disposal.....

Understand now? 

Quote:
And China doesn't play by the current rules based system so why would it under some other system? 


China would in fact be part of the reformed UNSC speaking with one voice (without veto).

Quote:
Because it would be a system created by Chine, in its own image for its own 'sovereign' hegemonic interests. 


Nonsense. The system would be a (belated) realization - by ALL members of the UN - of Australia's own 'Doc' Evatt's prescription for a world without war, maintained by an international rules-based system.

Finally sweeping the concept of global hegemony via 'might is right', including  the obsolete concept of national sovereignty in a globalized world,  into the dust-bin of history.

 


Nonsense.
How many UN resolutions are ignored without consequence?  How would your UNSC enforce its decisions?

You are talking about some vague, idiotic world government that would preside over a world where everyone has exactly the same resources, education, gifts, interests, and all conflicts are just misunderstandings between friends, easily remedied.

A wholly unreal fantasy calculated to disguise your agit prop for Chinese hegemony and unipolar world. But nobody wants a world remade in China's image. It would be a global gulag of kitsch and braiwashing.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #214 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:03pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 12:32pm:
Nonsense.


Gosh you will be a difficult student, but on behalf of the brilliant Doc Evatt's ideal of the eradication of war, I will persist.

Quote:
How many UN resolutions are ignored without consequence? 


Most of them.

Quote:
How would your UNSC enforce its decisions?


The same way a national government enforces rule of law on the nation's  own citizens ; except no nation can resist the reformed UNSC, for reasons already explained. 

Quote:
You are talking about some vague, idiotic world government that would preside over a world where everyone has exactly the same resources, education, gifts, interests, and all conflicts are just misunderstandings between friends, easily remedied.


No, de-legalizing war between nations, via a reformed UNSC,  is in principle no different than criminalizing murder among a nation's own citizens, with sanctions for criminal behaviour maintained via the nation's police  force.

But I understand why your sovereign individual  "freedom" delusion is still preventing you from clear, rational analysis of rule of law (whether national or international). 

Quote:
A wholly unreal fantasy calculated to disguise your agit prop for Chinese hegemony and unipolar world.


China like all nations would be subject to international rule of law under Evatt's vision.

OTOH, if you prefer you can take your chances with Chinese hegemony which will be the reality in the not too distant future, unless the UN reforms itself.   

Quote:
But nobody wants a world remade in China's image. It would be a global gulag of kitsch and braiwashing.


Addressed above.

Currently the US is sanctioning China in the most vicious manner in a doomed attempt to contain China's rise.

But rational,  goal driven national development will triumph over purely individual, profit-driven, delusional "freedom"-seeking,  'invisible hand', capitalist markets in the end.
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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #215 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:15pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:03pm:
The same way a national government enforces rule of law on the nation's  own citizens ; except no nation can resist the reformed UNSC, for reasons already explained. 



Already explained???   Cheesy Cheesy  Grin Grin

Explained like how to play the flute was explained:  blow in one end and move your fingers up and down the holes and... er... that's it?

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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #216 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:19pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:03pm:
No, de-legalizing war between nations, via a reformed UNSC,  is in principle no different than criminalizing murder among a nation's own citizens, with sanctions for criminal behaviour maintained via the nation's police  force.



Grin Grin Grin Grin


Mud.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #217 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:10pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:19pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:03pm:
No, de-legalizing war between nations, via a reformed UNSC,  is in principle no different than criminalizing murder among a nation's own citizens, with sanctions for criminal behaviour maintained via the nation's police  force.



Grin Grin Grin Grin


Mud.


That all you got?  Surely you can (.....!) explain the difference in principle as noted above? 
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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #218 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:25pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:10pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:19pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 1:03pm:
No, de-legalizing war between nations, via a reformed UNSC,  is in principle no different than criminalizing murder among a nation's own citizens, with sanctions for criminal behaviour maintained via the nation's police  force.



Grin Grin Grin Grin


Mud.


That all you got?  Surely you can (.....!) explain the difference in principle as noted above? 

Silly rot.

The UN has no ability to enforce any 'de-legalised war" eventhough there are international conventions supported by 196 countries.  Even if the UN did have the necessary forces at its disposal, using them would be.... war.

The analogy with murded and its legally enforced punishments in nation states is stupid, as to be expected from you. Murder is 'de-legalised" and punished in every country but has not been eliminated anywhere - just as international conventions have not prevented wars.

Look at Russia and China now. War mongers.




Fun facts:
The US is by far the biggest donor to the UN, in 2016 contributing some $10 billion of its $49 billion annual revenue. The next biggest donors were Germany ($3.4 billion) and the UK ($3 billion).

The permanent members of the Security Council that most often oppose American agendas in the UN, China ($1.3 billion) and Russia ($562 million), are ranked 6th and 15th respectively in terms of the magnitude of their contributions.

Australia was the UN’s 13th biggest national donor in 2016, contributing $748 million.




As usual, thug countries like China and Russia are not pulling their weight.

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #219 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 3:31pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:25pm:
Silly rot.

The UN has no ability to enforce any 'de-legalised war"


The reformed UNSC as described will have all the power it needs to maintain international  peace.

Can't you understand the difference between what is now and what will be soon?

Quote:
eventhough there are international conventions supported by 196 countries.  Even if the UN did have the necessary forces at its disposal, using them would be.... war.


No, because 196 countries (outside the UNSC) would not have militaries capable of mounting external aggression, ie war.  

Quote:
The analogy with murded and its legally enforced punishments in nation states is stupid, as to be expected from you. Murder is 'de-legalised" and punished in every country but has not been eliminated anywhere - just as international conventions have not prevented wars.


This is the error in that statement: "murder is punished in every country" - correct -, "but has not been eliminated anywhere" - also correct, but only because the behaviour of two individuals in close proximity cannot be guaranteed by law.

Whereas  the behaviour of two NATIONS (whether proximate or not) CAN be guaranteed by an international rulesbased system backed by a UNSC without veto, simply because of the logistics involved in mounting a war.   

Quote:
Look at Russia and China now. War mongers.


Well, the Chinese  want friendly relations with all countries. Russia is hankering after the glory days....and the US wants to maintain global hegemony in support of its "America First" dreams.

Quote:
Fun facts:
The US is by far the biggest donor to the UN, in 2016 contributing some $10 billion of its $49 billion annual revenue. The next biggest donors were Germany ($3.4 billion) and the UK ($3 billion).


$10 billion...while it spent $750 billion on enforcing (via the Pentagon's military industrial complex) its version of a "rules-based system" on the globe. "Fun fact" indeed.

Quote:
The permanent members of the Security Council that most often oppose American agendas in the UN, China ($1.3 billion) and Russia ($562 million), are ranked 6th and 15th respectively in terms of the magnitude of their contributions.


That's the stupidity of the UNSC veto, enabling the "US agenda" to be blocked by those members who oppose that agenda. The solution is upholding the agenda of  UN UDHR,  by a  UNSC without veto. 

Quote:
Australia was the UN’s 13th biggest national donor in 2016, contributing $748 million.


Oz had the 13th largest economy then, so that contribution is reasonable.

Quote:
As usual, thug countries like China and Russia are not pulling their weight.


And how much weight should countries with a per capita GDP of $10,000 pull?
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Ayn Marx
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #220 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 7:12pm
 
MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:44am:
An example of the CCP's propaganda slaves, known as wumao or little pinks.


[url]https://sustainabilitymattersdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Jenn
iferZeng.png[/url]

Ah! So that’s why they’re illiterate in whatever language they use.
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MeisterEckhart
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #221 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 7:47pm
 
Ayn Marx wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 7:12pm:
MeisterEckhart wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 11:44am:
An example of the CCP's propaganda slaves, known as wumao or little pinks.


[url]https://sustainabilitymattersdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Jenn
iferZeng.png[/url]

Ah! So that’s why they’re illiterate in whatever language they use.

You'd need Peter Sellers, Peter Cooke and Mike Myers to make up a script that includes Chinese wumao / little pinks.
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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #222 - Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:33pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 3:31pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 2:25pm:
Silly rot.

The UN has no ability to enforce any 'de-legalised war"


The reformed UNSC as described will have all the power it needs to maintain international  peace.

Can't you understand the difference between what is now and what will be soon?

Quote:
eventhough there are international conventions supported by 196 countries.  Even if the UN did have the necessary forces at its disposal, using them would be.... war.


No, because 196 countries (outside the UNSC) would not have militaries capable of mounting external aggression, ie war.  

Quote:
The analogy with murded and its legally enforced punishments in nation states is stupid, as to be expected from you. Murder is 'de-legalised" and punished in every country but has not been eliminated anywhere - just as international conventions have not prevented wars.


This is the error in that statement: "murder is punished in every country" - correct -, "but has not been eliminated anywhere" - also correct, but only because the behaviour of two individuals in close proximity cannot be guaranteed by law.

Whereas  the behaviour of two NATIONS (whether proximate or not) CAN be guaranteed by an international rulesbased system backed by a UNSC without veto, simply because of the logistics involved in mounting a war.   

Quote:
Look at Russia and China now. War mongers.


Well, the Chinese  want friendly relations with all countries. Russia is hankering after the glory days....and the US wants to maintain global hegemony in support of its "America First" dreams.

Quote:
Fun facts:
The US is by far the biggest donor to the UN, in 2016 contributing some $10 billion of its $49 billion annual revenue. The next biggest donors were Germany ($3.4 billion) and the UK ($3 billion).


$10 billion...while it spent $750 billion on enforcing (via the Pentagon's military industrial complex) its version of a "rules-based system" on the globe. "Fun fact" indeed.

Quote:
The permanent members of the Security Council that most often oppose American agendas in the UN, China ($1.3 billion) and Russia ($562 million), are ranked 6th and 15th respectively in terms of the magnitude of their contributions.


That's the stupidity of the UNSC veto, enabling the "US agenda" to be blocked by those members who oppose that agenda. The solution is upholding the agenda of  UN UDHR,  by a  UNSC without veto. 

Quote:
Australia was the UN’s 13th biggest national donor in 2016, contributing $748 million.


Oz had the 13th largest economy then, so that contribution is reasonable.

Quote:
As usual, thug countries like China and Russia are not pulling their weight.


And how much weight should countries with a per capita GDP of $10,000 pull?

Stupid, Chinese rot.

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #223 - Feb 24th, 2022 at 10:24am
 
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:33pm:
Silly rot.


That's not debate.

Let's try again. You wrote:

Quote:
The analogy with murded and its legally enforced punishments in nation states is stupid, as to be expected from you. Murder is 'de-legalised" and punished in every country but has not been eliminated anywhere - just as international conventions have not prevented wars.


I explained your mistake, thus:

"murder is punished in every country" - correct -, "but has not been eliminated anywhere" - also correct, but only because the behaviour of two individuals in close proximity cannot be guaranteed by law.

Whereas  the behaviour of two NATIONS (whether proximate or not) CAN be guaranteed by an international rules-based system (in which war is de-legalized)backed by a UNSC without veto, simply because of the huge logistics involved in mounting a war. 

In effect we are relieving nations of the need to maintain their own militaries, since the UNSC (without veto) would indeedbe able to guarantee peace between nations, as per an international rules based system.

It's wonderful to see the deluded individual "freedom", ideologue coming a cropper over such simple logic: he thinks that because individuals can break the law, that means that nations can therefore also break the law.

Fallacy of composition....deluded sovereign individual ideologues always stuff up   in matters of macro-economic and collective realities. 

(Keynes pointed out that if everyone is thrifty in an economic downturn, that will worsen the downturn).

And that's why   consensus one party meritocracies will prove to be the better form of governance, as advancing  AI and IT enable better data collection and policy creation.   



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Frank
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Re: Western Culture
Reply #224 - Feb 24th, 2022 at 11:32am
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 24th, 2022 at 10:24am:
Frank wrote on Feb 23rd, 2022 at 9:33pm:
Silly rot.


That's not debate.

Let's try again. You wrote:

Quote:
The analogy with murded and its legally enforced punishments in nation states is stupid, as to be expected from you. Murder is 'de-legalised" and punished in every country but has not been eliminated anywhere - just as international conventions have not prevented wars.


I explained your mistake, thus:

"murder is punished in every country" - correct -, "but has not been eliminated anywhere" - also correct, but only because the behaviour of two individuals in close proximity cannot be guaranteed by law.

Whereas  the behaviour of two NATIONS (whether proximate or not) CAN be guaranteed by an international rules-based system (in which war is de-legalized)backed by a UNSC without veto, simply because of the huge logistics involved in mounting a war. 




You do enjoy talking complete rot, don't you?

Guaranteed how? By the UN looking very very cross indeed?  Not even capital punishment can guarantee the end to murders but the UN looking very displeased and tut-tutting sternly will guarantee the end of wars.

We have an international rules based system already but that doesn't stop China from trampling on Hong Kong, monstering Taiwan, running gulags for dissenters, threatening Australia, Canada, Lithuania, the UK, lying and cheating despate promising honesty if admitted to the WTO, etc, etc.





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