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Israel did not win the war on Gaza (Read 20034 times)
Frank
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #330 - Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 1:44pm:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 10:14am:
aquascoot wrote on Dec 22nd, 2023 at 6:18pm:
Every person in Gaza has to be considered an enemy combatant
Otherwise why are they there
If you are in a war zone and you aren't wearing an Israeli uniform
We can assume you are a hostile
I don't even have a problem with the Israeli army killing the hostages
In world war 2 it was common knowledge that American pow camps we're set up in the rhur region of Germany
The air force had no problem whatsoever in bombing their own men

The gazans declared war on Israel
And Israel needs to destroy Gaza as a matter of duty to their own citizens
Destroy humiliate and ensure that never again will anyone occupying that area attack Israel


It is an illusion to believe that ceasefires invariably, or even usually, save lives. Rather, ever since the newly established UN issued its first demand for a ceasefire on August 1, 1947, calls for ceasefires have become an ­essential part of combatants’ armoury, to be deployed as strategically as any other weapon – not for the purpose of making peace but of better pursuing a war they would otherwise lose.

As Clapham argues in reviewing their role in Africa, Western governments, who regularly seek to impose those agreements, act as if the participants in every conflict “share a common value framework, within which differences are ultimately negotiable”.

Additionally, vocal domestic constituencies and “external human rights monitoring organisations, led by the long-established Amnesty International”, fuel the demands for a ceasefire while aggressively tilting “the balance of moral advantage” from governments to insurgents who pose as victims worthy of being protected.

But as these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.

Blissfully ignoring that fact, Western governments hold to the “tragically mistaken” assumption that a pause in hostilities “can only have a positive or neutral impact”: “if it succeeds, it does good; if it fails, it does no harm”. The grim reality, however, is that the pauses have repeatedly acted as little more than a way of preventing a definitive military solution, condemning conflict zones to “forever wars” and bloodshed without end.

The ancients would not have been surprised. Diodorus, in one of the earliest compendiums of the laws of war, included the ­precept that a “truce may not be broken”; but precisely because respect for that precept required a degree of civilisation, and the trustworthiness that accompanies it, the Greeks thought there was no point in entering into truces with barbarians, who understood nothing but brute force.

And when Plato suggested, in The Laws, that the rules of warfare should apply equally to Greeks and barbarians, his contention was ridiculed as absurdly naive.

Now, the same Western governments that helped engineer one disastrous ceasefire after the other are placing mounting pressure on Israel to commit to a pause which would allow Hamas to regroup. They have, it seems, forgotten absolutely everything and learned absolutely nothing.

HENRY ERGAS 


Ergas is an orthodox neoclassical/neoliberal economist - who ipso facto will produce 'survival of the fittest'-based  analyses of political realities, which you fall for, hook-line-and sinker. 

Plato is in another class altogether; international law - yet to be realized -  is NOT "naive", it's a measure of civilization. 

You know... homo sapiens on the path to wellbeing and security for all.



As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #331 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:28am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, not like those lands, who were subjugated before the UN came into existance.

Oddly, the UN caused Israel to be carved out of Muslim Palestine....
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #332 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am
 
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.
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Frank
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #333 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.



As if Muslims never conquered anything.

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #334 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:11pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.



As if Muslims never conquered anything.



er...remember my comment about an advancing human civilization?

International law - to which all nations are (nominally) signed up - has only existed since 1946.
Moslems certainly haven't conquered anything since then...
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Frank
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #335 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:15pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:11pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.



As if Muslims never conquered anything.



er...remember my comment about an advancing human civilization?

International law - to which all nations are (nominally) signed up - has only existed since 1946.
Moslems certainly haven't conquered anything since then...

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #336 - Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:28pm
 
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:15pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:11pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.



As if Muslims never conquered anything.



er...remember my comment about an advancing human civilization?

International law - to which all nations are (nominally) signed up - has only existed since 1946.
Moslems certainly haven't conquered anything since then...

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


Your brain turned to mash, again?
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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #337 - Apr 18th, 2024 at 12:25pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?



Wrong, it's not all about ideology, it's about the introduction of international law arrangements since 1946, even if the  international  law created in 1946 is flawed.   
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« Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2024 at 12:33pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #338 - Apr 18th, 2024 at 12:28pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:28pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:15pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 1:11pm:
Frank wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 12:30pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Feb 7th, 2024 at 11:35am:
Frank wrote on Dec 23rd, 2023 at 3:01pm:
As these insurgents’ “willingness to resort to systematic murder on a large scale in order to maintain their own power” shows, they “are fundamentally irreconcilable to any resolution of the conflict through a negotiated settlement”.


Of course: even Ben Gurion said he would not recognize Israel if he was an Arab.

Which proves the need for interntional law to adjudicate such conflicts.



As if Muslims never conquered anything.



er...remember my comment about an advancing human civilization?

International law - to which all nations are (nominally) signed up - has only existed since 1946.
Moslems certainly haven't conquered anything since then...

Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


Your brain turned to mash, again?


Er..you forgot to say which point shows my "brain has turned to mash", and why.


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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #339 - May 7th, 2024 at 4:31pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, its about international law after 1946.
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MattE
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #340 - May 7th, 2024 at 8:53pm
 
The title of this thread is premature.

Has Israel lost? The war isn't over.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #341 - May 7th, 2024 at 10:56pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 7th, 2024 at 4:31pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, its about international law after 1946.


So you demand that international law be shoved down the throats of every country?  Is that to be - like - equally?  Or is it to apply only to those countries civilised enough to even consider it?  Will the Taliban accept it?  The Mullahs in Iran?  You know the drift... the African dictator with voodoo sticks etc....

There's a reason they call us the civilised tribes - people have been sneaking up on us for generations ... and now a hodge podge bunch of mental illiterates in the main with their heads filled with socialist ideas for all except their group with the big salaries and incomes and the power to send others to the wall etc.... same as here ... are trying to sneak up on us using the UN as the excuse?

Endeavour to persevere while we take everything you have, they said .... once I had a fine woman and a fine family... then the Trail of Tears wrought by social science put us on that deadly trail away from the West and its values and into an empty waste where children seek butchery rather than live like men and women ... they prefer to die as monsters than live as Human Beings ..... now my family are all gone and my tribe is near extinct .... so we went away and considered this...  Endeavour To Persevere .... and when we had considered long enough - we all declared war on the UN.  We declared war forever on The Madness that was possessing the world......
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« Last Edit: May 7th, 2024 at 11:03pm by Grappler Truth Teller Feller »  

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thegreatdivide
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #342 - May 8th, 2024 at 1:26pm
 
Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 7th, 2024 at 10:56pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on May 7th, 2024 at 4:31pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, its about international law after 1946.


So you demand that international law be shoved down the throats of every country? 


Er.... rule of law - whether regarding national rules, or international rules - requires acceptance by everyone.

Do try to keep up.

Quote:
Is that to be - like - equally? 


Yes - though national laws may differ between nations; international law must be obeyed by all nations, equally.

Quote:
Or is it to apply only to those countries civilised enough to even consider it?


No, as explained above. 

Quote:
Will the Taliban accept it?  The Mullahs in Iran?  You know the drift... the African dictator with voodoo sticks etc....


That's an issue for the UNGA to address: "freedom of religion" needs to be circumscribed.

Quote:
There's a reason they call us the civilised tribes -


And yet here we are, with Judeo-Christian imperialists - supposedly "civilized" - conducting genocide all over again, because they decided to create Israel in Muslim lands against the wishes of the Arab world, and are determined to crush Palestinian objections to confiscation of their land. 

Meanwhile the Russians - Christians - are fighting a 'holy war' against 'nazi' NATO-backed Christians in Ukraine; see the problem with "freedom of religion" combined with freedom of political ideology, without adjudication by international law?

Quote:
people have been sneaking up on us for generations ... and now a hodge podge bunch of mental illiterates in the main with their heads filled with socialist ideas for all except their group with the big salaries and incomes and the power to send others to the wall etc.... same as here ... are trying to sneak up on us using the UN as the excuse?


Addressed above; "to save mankind from the scourge of war": UN Charter, but you are part of the problem, as shown above [....and "socialist" ideas.. eg shared prosperity?].

Quote:
Endeavour to persevere while we take everything you have, they said .... once I had a fine woman and a fine family... then the Trail of Tears wrought by social science put us on that deadly trail away from the West and its values and into an empty waste where children seek butchery rather than live like men and women ... they prefer to die as monsters than live as Human Beings ..... now my family are all gone and my tribe is near extinct .... so we went away and considered this...  Endeavour To Persevere .... and when we had considered long enough - we all declared war on the UN.  We declared war forever on The Madness that was possessing the world......


Simple proposition:

Naturally self-interested, competitive individuals must submit to rule of law, to avoid chaos. Trumpy is currently feeling the pain, but imagine the chaos if people like Trump were given free rein.... much like the chaos in Palestine, as Hamas and Netanyahu are given free rein.
Sad
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« Last Edit: May 8th, 2024 at 1:43pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #343 - May 8th, 2024 at 3:25pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on May 7th, 2024 at 4:31pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, its about international law after 1946.

Under what international law did China invade and annex Tibet?

How do you say Achtung, baby, das ist Anschluss in Tibetan? In Chinese?

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Re: Israel did not win the war on Gaza
Reply #344 - May 8th, 2024 at 5:10pm
 
Frank wrote on May 8th, 2024 at 3:25pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on May 7th, 2024 at 4:31pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:35pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Jun 9th, 2021 at 6:29pm:
Israel should never have been recreated in Arab lands, without the consent of the Arabs.

Aww... Like the Chinese regime and Tibet.

It's all about ideology... But the Chinese don't have a 'Talmud' on Tibet... Or do they?


No, its about international law after 1946.


Under what international law did China invade and annex Tibet?


None; in 1950 the UN hadn't passed laws relating to Chinese sovereignty in Tibet, which had existed under the Qing dynasty. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate#:~:text=The%20United%20...

Three UN resolutions which were passed in 1959, 1961, and 1965 all condemned human rights violations in Tibet. These resolutions were passed at a time when the PRC was not permitted to become a member of the United Nations and of course, it was not allowed to present its singular version of events in the region to the United Nations (however, the Republic of China on Taiwan, which the PRC also claims sovereignty over, was a member of the UN at that time, and it also claimed sovereignty over Tibet and opposed Tibetan self-determination). The professor and sinologist A. Tom Grunfeld called the resolutions impractical and he also justified the PRC's decision to ignore them.[150]

Quote:
How do you say Achtung, baby, das ist Anschluss in Tibetan? In Chinese?


I don't know, I can't speak Chinese.
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