Australian Politics Forum - Statue to be removed

Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85006 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #90 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 2:35am
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AiA Gold Member Offline Posts: 18405 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #91 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 2:57am Richard Branson blasts into space while Trump supporters like Mortie are still fighting the Civil War in their heads ...
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 138597 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #92 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:30am AiA wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 2:57am: Richard Branson blasts into space while Trump supporters like Mortie are still fighting the Civil War in their heads ... Lol Well, at least there's plenty of room in there.
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Belgarion

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #93 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:12pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 4:24pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 3:22pm:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races —that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Should a man who said this have a statue erected to his memory? If there are any such, should they be torn down?

Yes, but even Lincoln, Grant and Sherman agreed with Lee.

They may have agreed that slavery was an evil that must be destroyed, but equality was another matter.

Then you would wish statues of this man torn down?

As I am not a southern American, I am not privy to their sensibilities. I can only stand on sidelines and observe, as you too are restricted (unless you're a southern American).

Not being a Southern American has not stopped you commenting thus far. Why not answer the question. If there are statues to the man who said these words, should they be torn down?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #94 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:17pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:14pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:09pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm:

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

OK... But what you're saying (and I don't mean this as a personal offense, we're all tested like this) is that you don't have the courage it would take to stand by your convictions.

That's not it at all. Statues or art do not define my convictions. I'm happy for others to have convictions opposed to mine, I live and deal with them every day. What I don't like is the attempt at rewriting history via the deletion of parts of it because they offend someone in the present for what happened in the past.

Even Lee himself recognised the danger of symbols to a lost and wrong cause and yet his effigy is misappropriated despite the man's wishes.

That's history for you. Jesus! <-not an exclamation to a god person. An example.

Not as good an example as you might think... Jesus instructed his apostles to remember him and (allegedly) created a ritual meal by which he would be intimately remembered.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #95 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:39pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm:

Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners.

based upon?

If you believe no history should be forgotten, then historical theft of land or property should not be forgotten.

And it follows that if you acknowledge an historical crime has been committed, don't you have the responsibility to offer restitution... To right an acknowledged wrong?

If remembering injustices was easy (i.e had no consequences), we'd all be doing it 3 times before lunch.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #96 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:25pm

Belgarion wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 4:24pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 3:22pm:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races —that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Should a man who said this have a statue erected to his memory? If there are any such, should they be torn down?

Yes, but even Lincoln, Grant and Sherman agreed with Lee.

They may have agreed that slavery was an evil that must be destroyed, but equality was another matter.

Then you would wish statues of this man torn down?

As I am not a southern American, I am not privy to their sensibilities. I can only stand on sidelines and observe, as you too are restricted (unless you're a southern American).

Not being a Southern American has not stopped you commenting thus far. Why not answer the question. If there are statues to the man who said these words, should they be torn down?

Commenting on what Lee said against his own apotheosis with regard to 'symbols' in his honour, is not me claiming to know what it feels like to be a southern American still processing the ripple effects of the American Civil War.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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lee

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #97 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 1:44pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

If you believe no history should be forgotten, then historical theft of land or property should not be forgotten.

True

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

And it follows that if you acknowledge an historical crime has been committed, don't you have the responsibility to offer restitution... To right an acknowledged wrong?

No. That would mean everything back to at least the Picts would require restitution. Wink

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #98 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 1:48pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 1:44pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

And it follows that if you acknowledge an historical crime has been committed, don't you have the responsibility to offer restitution... To right an acknowledged wrong?

No. That would mean everything back to at least the Picts would require restitution. Wink

OK...

Then you'd need to define the timeframe by which remembering historical wrongs no longer implies a duty to offer restitution.

Or are you saying there is no responsibility of any kind to right any historical wrongs?

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Belgarion

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #99 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:13pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:25pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 4:24pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 3:22pm:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races —that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Should a man who said this have a statue erected to his memory? If there are any such, should they be torn down?

Yes, but even Lincoln, Grant and Sherman agreed with Lee.

They may have agreed that slavery was an evil that must be destroyed, but equality was another matter.

Then you would wish statues of this man torn down?

As I am not a southern American, I am not privy to their sensibilities. I can only stand on sidelines and observe, as you too are restricted (unless you're a southern American).

Not being a Southern American has not stopped you commenting thus far. Why not answer the question. If there are statues to the man who said these words, should they be torn down?

Commenting on what Lee said against his own apotheosis with regard to 'symbols' in his honour, is not me claiming to know what it feels like to be a southern American still processing the ripple effects of the American Civil War.

So you won't answer the question. I accept your surrender. I notice none of the other statue destroyers have chipped in on this question either. Understandable, as it makes them look even more foolish. Grin

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

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lee

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #100 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:34pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 1:48pm:

Then you'd need to define the timeframe by which remembering historical wrongs no longer implies a duty to offer restitution.

Nope. it was your proposition; you define the timeline.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

And it follows that if you acknowledge an historical crime has been committed, don't you have the responsibility to offer restitution... To right an acknowledged wrong?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #101 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm

Belgarion wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:13pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:25pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:01pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 4:24pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 3:22pm:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races —that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Should a man who said this have a statue erected to his memory? If there are any such, should they be torn down?

Yes, but even Lincoln, Grant and Sherman agreed with Lee.

They may have agreed that slavery was an evil that must be destroyed, but equality was another matter.

Then you would wish statues of this man torn down?

As I am not a southern American, I am not privy to their sensibilities. I can only stand on sidelines and observe, as you too are restricted (unless you're a southern American).

Not being a Southern American has not stopped you commenting thus far. Why not answer the question. If there are statues to the man who said these words, should they be torn down?

Commenting on what Lee said against his own apotheosis with regard to 'symbols' in his honour, is not me claiming to know what it feels like to be a southern American still processing the ripple effects of the American Civil War.

So you won't answer the question. I accept your surrender. I notice none of the other statue destroyers have chipped in on this question either. Understandable, as it makes them look even more foolish.

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #102 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:39pm

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 1:48pm:

Then you'd need to define the timeframe by which remembering historical wrongs no longer implies a duty to offer restitution.

Nope. it was your proposition; you define the timeline.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:22pm:

And it follows that if you acknowledge an historical crime has been committed, don't you have the responsibility to offer restitution... To right an acknowledged wrong?

OK... From 1920.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17920 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #103 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 6:41pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:39pm: OK... From 1920. NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm: Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners. Then that does not apply.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #104 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 6:41pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:39pm: OK... From 1920. NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm: Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners. Then that does not apply. You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870.
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