Australian Politics Forum - Statue to be removed

lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17920 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #105 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:20pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm: You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870. I can know that. Once land has been sold/rated it becomes freehold to the owner. There is no going back from that.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #106 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:42pm lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:20pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm: You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870. I can know that. Once land has been sold/rated it becomes freehold to the owner. There is no going back from that. There is if you choose to return it to its rightful owner.
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Belgarion

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #107 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:19am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

You don't wish the statues torn down? Good. Why not say that before instead of resorting to all that obfuscation? However the culture that created them does not wish them torn down either, only a noisy minority who think that the destruction of monuments will make all their problems disappear. Roll Eyes

Still waiting to hear from the statue vandals.....whats your take on this? Grin

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #108 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:51am

Belgarion wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

You don't wish the statues torn down? Good. Why not say that before instead of resorting to all that obfuscation? However the culture that created them does not wish them torn down either, only a noisy minority who think that the destruction of monuments will make all their problems disappear. Roll Eyes

Still waiting to hear from the statue vandals.....whats your take on this? Grin

As I said... Stupid...

Do you understand the concept of iconoclasm? It's been with human society since societies were a thing.

What happened to all those statues of Lenin? Defaced statues of the Roman Caesars? Greek gods? The destruction of pagan images during the Christianizing of Europe? How about the tearing down of the statue of King George III in New York in 1776? The destruction of the artwork in the Hagia Sophia?

Do you have any objection to historical iconoclasm? If so, why?

Iconoclasm. It's a thing humans do when the images and art that represent a past society offend its current iteration.

I didn't 'wish' for the statues of Lenin to be torn down in, say, Ukraine (even if I could understand why they were), did you? And what if you did... Do you have any right to impose that on Ukrainians?

I know... I guess you're an old man now and the past is greater than your future, so maybe you're inclined to defend all past things... Even if they're not yours.

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« Last Edit: Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:56am by NorthOfNorth »

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #109 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:54am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:42pm:

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm:

You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870.

I can know that. Once land has been sold/rated it becomes freehold to the owner. There is no going back from that.

There is if you choose to return it to its rightful owner.

A very lose concept when you apply it to wandering groups crossing vast swathes of land... which parts to you want to give them? Only the very best? Why, when there is no documentation and such to support their contentions?

As I said - most of our local groups are mixed now anyway.... very difficult to say who actually wandered which land etc...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #110 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:51am:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

You don't wish the statues torn down? Good. Why not say that before instead of resorting to all that obfuscation? However the culture that created them does not wish them torn down either, only a noisy minority who think that the destruction of monuments will make all their problems disappear. Roll Eyes

Still waiting to hear from the statue vandals.....whats your take on this? Grin

As I said... Stupid...

Do you understand the concept of iconoclasm? It's been with human society since societies were a thing.

What happened to all those statues of Lenin? Defaced statues of the Roman Caesars? Greek gods? The destruction of pagan images during the Christianizing of Europe? How about the tearing down of the statue of King George III in New York in 1776? The destruction of the artwork in the Hagia Sophia?

Do you have any objection to historical iconoclasm? If so, why?

Iconoclasm. It's a thing humans do when the images and art that represent a past society offend its current iteration.

I didn't 'wish' for the statue of Lenin to be torn down in, say, Ukraine, did you? And what if you did... Do you have any right to impose that on Ukrainians?

I know... I guess you're an old manu now and the past is greater than your future, so maybe you're inclined to defend all past things... Even if they're not yours.

You're equating statues of Robert E Lee with Lenin?

How about, in the mad rush to uphold and protect the icons of a certain culture - we give the same privilege to others who happen to live there?

Here in Oz there was a rightful outcry over the destruction of caves containing some paintings going way back - I joined in with that - it was one company, not a general program to destroy a culture... but the crass indifference to many things in the name of profit is breathtaking...

Where was the equal outcry over the vandalism of Captain Cook's statue in Hyde Park? Where the demonstrations? Where the mass signings of protest? What would have happened if Australians had linked arms to form a wall around it to protect their heritage and culture or set up a camp there?

Robert E Lee's statue was to commemorate the stand of the State over State's Rights as they saw it then - and to commemorate those who died in that cause...... not one thing to do with oppression of blacks and slavery apart from peripherally ....... VERY peripherally.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Belgarion

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #111 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:04pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:51am:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

You don't wish the statues torn down? Good. Why not say that before instead of resorting to all that obfuscation? However the culture that created them does not wish them torn down either, only a noisy minority who think that the destruction of monuments will make all their problems disappear. Roll Eyes

Still waiting to hear from the statue vandals.....whats your take on this? Grin

As I said... Stupid...

Do you understand the concept of iconoclasm? It's been with human society since societies were a thing.

What happened to all those statues of Lenin? Defaced statues of the Roman Caesars? Greek gods? The destruction of pagan images during the Christianizing of Europe? How about the tearing down of the statue of King George III in New York in 1776? The destruction of the artwork in the Hagia Sophia?

Do you have any objection to historical iconoclasm? If so, why?

Iconoclasm. It's a thing humans do when the images and art that represent a past society offend its current iteration.

I didn't 'wish' for the statues of Lenin to be torn down in, say, Ukraine (even if I could understand why they were), did you? And what if you did... Do you have any right to impose that on Ukrainians?

I know... I guess you're an old manu now and the past is greater than your future, so maybe you're inclined to defend all past things... Even if they're not yours.

Your attempts to dig yourself out of the hole you created by refusing to answer my question in the first place are rather pathetic. I will give you one more chance.

Do you see the removal of the Lee statue as an action approved by the majority of the people, or one supported only by an unrepresentative but noisy minority? A simple question. Mentions of ancient Rome, the former Soviet Union, and 15th century Byzantium are not required.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #112 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:09pm

Belgarion wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:04pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:51am:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 11:19am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 4:37pm:

Another one as stupid as Pastor Ross.

I don't wish for statues to be torn down... But if the culture in which they belong deems that they should be torn down because they, say, represent something more than just a memorial to the past but also cause a significant negative response within their respective communities, I can understand why they'd decide to tear them down.

Whatever Lee represents, in the southern states, it's definitely more than just a memorial to history. It seems it represent a reminder of segregation.

If in Australia statues of, say, Queen Victoria represented more than just a memorial to the past but to a dark history that is persisted into the present specifically by their existence, such that it caused considerable current social grief, then yes, remove them.

You don't wish the statues torn down? Good. Why not say that before instead of resorting to all that obfuscation? However the culture that created them does not wish them torn down either, only a noisy minority who think that the destruction of monuments will make all their problems disappear. Roll Eyes

Still waiting to hear from the statue vandals.....whats your take on this? Grin

As I said... Stupid...

Do you understand the concept of iconoclasm? It's been with human society since societies were a thing.

What happened to all those statues of Lenin? Defaced statues of the Roman Caesars? Greek gods? The destruction of pagan images during the Christianizing of Europe? How about the tearing down of the statue of King George III in New York in 1776? The destruction of the artwork in the Hagia Sophia?

Do you have any objection to historical iconoclasm? If so, why?

Iconoclasm. It's a thing humans do when the images and art that represent a past society offend its current iteration.

I didn't 'wish' for the statues of Lenin to be torn down in, say, Ukraine (even if I could understand why they were), did you? And what if you did... Do you have any right to impose that on Ukrainians?

I know... I guess you're an old manu now and the past is greater than your future, so maybe you're inclined to defend all past things... Even if they're not yours.

Your attempts to dig yourself out of the hole you created by refusing to answer my question in the first place are rather pathetic. I will give you one more chance.

Do you see the removal of the Lee statue as an action approved by the majority of the people, or one supported only by an unrepresentative but noisy minority? A simple question. Mentions of ancient Rome, the former Soviet Union, and 15th century Byzantium are not required.

How many in Charlottesville voted against the removal of the statue?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #113 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:12pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:00pm:

Robert E Lee's statue was to commemorate the stand of the State over State's Rights as they saw it then - and to commemorate those who died in that cause...... not one thing to do with oppression of blacks and slavery apart from peripherally ....... VERY peripherally.

So, not to sell land to whites only in the 1920s?

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lee

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #114 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:18pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:42pm:

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm:

You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870.

I can know that. Once land has been sold/rated it becomes freehold to the owner. There is no going back from that.

There is if you choose to return it to its rightful owner.

The rightful owner is the one who is making the rates payments. Roll Eyes

Why do you want to keep changing the dates? Grin

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #115 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:28pm

lee wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:18pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:42pm:

lee wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 8:20pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 7:21pm:

You can't know that, but make it, say, 1870.

I can know that. Once land has been sold/rated it becomes freehold to the owner. There is no going back from that.

There is if you choose to return it to its rightful owner.

The rightful owner is the one who is making the rates payments. Roll Eyes

Why do you want to keep changing the dates? Grin

You're conflating the imposition of legality with morality.

The original point was that if you acknowledge that past actions were wrong, do you have a responsibility to right the wrong?

Changing the dates? Because they're meaningless in the context of moral actions if you believe that the past should not be forgotten. What is it not to forget an unjust act except to hold for its reckoning?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17920 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #116 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:29pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:09pm: How many in Charlottesville voted against the removal of the statue? The City Council voted. All voted for the removal. Of course that doesn't mean a majority of ratepayers in the city agreed.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #117 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:31pm

lee wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:29pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:09pm:

How many in Charlottesville voted against the removal of the statue?

The City Council voted. All voted for the removal. Of course that doesn't mean a majority of ratepayers in the city agreed. Wink

So you don't know how many would have voted either way.

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philperth2010 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20484 Perth Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #118 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:32pm The statue in question has been removed to a museum so it cannot be vandalised or used by white supremacists as a staging point for anarchy....The statue has not been destroyed and is in a better place to be preserved!!!
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lee

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #119 - Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:33pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:31pm:

lee wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:29pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 13^th, 2021 at 12:09pm:

How many in Charlottesville voted against the removal of the statue?

The City Council voted. All voted for the removal. Of course that doesn't mean a majority of ratepayers in the city agreed. Wink

So you don't know how many would have voted either way.

No I don't and neither do you. Why did you bring it up in the first place? Grin

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