Australian Politics Forum - Statue to be removed

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #60 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:58pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:48pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:47pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:46pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:36pm:

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:26pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:05pm:

But OK... Should we have statues of Hitler... Or maybe Jeffrey Epstein?

You can have any statue YOU want. Hitler is a luminary but not one widely admired. Jeffrey Epstein? Was he FAMOUS and IMPORTANT? Wink

Ah, see... It's all about who you like, who you'd tolerate and who you'd draw the line at.

Of course, it's a safe to assume the answer to the question: who want's a statue a Jeffry Epstein? Even if he dragged US presidents, UK royalty and tech billionaires under his bus...

So, it begs the question: What is the definition of 'famous and important' such that it wouldn't breach the limits you're prepared to go?

Well, if my local council put up a statue of Xi, I would not tear it down, their taste in art sculpture is renowned in it's insanity and none of it has been removed.

None of it has been removed but you'd tear it down? Then get to it!

Umm, did you misread? Benefit of the doubt for now.

Why?

Why? Because you misrepresented what I said to the point of being opposite of what I said. Hence I asked if you misread and would give you the benefit of doubt leaning that way.
On the other hand if this "why?" is a persistence in your belief I said that I would tear them down, my post says I would not.

We are at odds in what you think I said and would say that error is on your side.

I'm interested in the fact that (while assuming you wouldn't act on your disapproval) why would you not tear down (or have torn down - I'm assuming) a statue of Xi only because you believe that your local council is insane?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #61 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:01pm

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 4:24pm:

Belgarion wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 3:22pm:

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races —that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Should a man who said this have a statue erected to his memory? If there are any such, should they be torn down?

Yes, but even Lincoln, Grant and Sherman agreed with Lee.

They may have agreed that slavery was an evil that must be destroyed, but equality was another matter.

Then you would wish statues of this man torn down?

As I am not a southern American, I am not privy to their sensibilities. I can only stand on sidelines and observe, as you too are restricted (unless you're a southern American).

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Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #62 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:58pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:50pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:48pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:47pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:46pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:36pm:

lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:26pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:05pm:

But OK... Should we have statues of Hitler... Or maybe Jeffrey Epstein?

You can have any statue YOU want. Hitler is a luminary but not one widely admired. Jeffrey Epstein? Was he FAMOUS and IMPORTANT? Wink

Ah, see... It's all about who you like, who you'd tolerate and who you'd draw the line at.

Of course, it's a safe to assume the answer to the question: who want's a statue a Jeffry Epstein? Even if he dragged US presidents, UK royalty and tech billionaires under his bus...

So, it begs the question: What is the definition of 'famous and important' such that it wouldn't breach the limits you're prepared to go?

Well, if my local council put up a statue of Xi, I would not tear it down, their taste in art sculpture is renowned in it's insanity and none of it has been removed.

None of it has been removed but you'd tear it down? Then get to it!

Umm, did you misread? Benefit of the doubt for now.

Why?

Why? Because you misrepresented what I said to the point of being opposite of what I said. Hence I asked if you misread and would give you the benefit of doubt leaning that way.
On the other hand if this "why?" is a persistence in your belief I said that I would tear them down, my post says I would not.

We are at odds in what you think I said and would say that error is on your side.

I'm interested in the fact that (while assuming you wouldn't act on your disapproval) why would you not tear down (or have torn down - I'm assuming) a statue of Xi only because you believe that your local council is insane?

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17942 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #63 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:07pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:45pm: Now you're going to need to define famous and important. Nope. I don't. You are the one seems to want to build/remove statues.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #64 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:09pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm:

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

OK... But what you're saying (and I don't mean this as a personal offense, we're all tested like this) is that you don't have the courage it would take to stand by your convictions.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #65 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:11pm lee wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:07pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:45pm: Now you're going to need to define famous and important. Nope. I don't. You are the one seems to want to build/remove statues. No. I'm exceptionally immune to political iconography and political / psychological dogma.
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Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #66 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:14pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:09pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm:

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

OK... But what you're saying (and I don't mean this as a personal offense, we're all tested like this) is that you don't have the courage it would take to stand by your convictions.

That's not it at all. Statues or art do not define my convictions. I'm happy for others to have convictions opposed to mine, I live and deal with them every day. What I don't like is the attempt at rewriting history via the deletion of parts of it because they offend someone in the present for what happened in the past.

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issuevoter

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #67 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

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« Last Edit: Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:26pm by issuevoter »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #68 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:14pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:09pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm:

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

OK... But what you're saying (and I don't mean this as a personal offense, we're all tested like this) is that you don't have the courage it would take to stand by your convictions.

That's not it at all. Statues or art do not define my convictions. I'm happy for others to have convictions opposed to mine, I live and deal with them every day. What I don't like is the attempt at rewriting history via the deletion of parts of it because they offend someone in the present for what happened in the past.

Even Lee himself recognised the danger of symbols to a lost and wrong cause and yet his effigy is misappropriated despite the man's wishes.

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Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #69 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #70 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17942 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #71 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:39pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm: Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners. based upon?
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Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #72 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:40pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:37pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners.

I can't see how that follows, sorry. Perhaps if I supported pulling down James Cook's statues you could say that and there are members here that would support it. I would like you to support your contention "Then be prepared to transfer your land to the original owners" from what I have said.

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Dnarever

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #73 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

They are not going to destroy them - they will be moved to museums where that type of history belongs.

These guys were traitors who fought a war against the United States, these statues are inappropriate insulting to Blacks and encouraging to white nationalists.

These are the people who fought for slavery and that is what these statues represent.

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Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #74 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:14pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:09pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:06pm:

I could show you some pics of the "sculptures" they have paid big money for. Their sense of artistic sensibility is lacking in me and many other ratepayers who pay for it. We don't tear it down though. It will become part of our history as much as we don't think it reflects the community. If they put up a Xi statue, no-one would tear it down, we'd just wait for Aqua and his ilk to come to pay homage and take their money.

OK... But what you're saying (and I don't mean this as a personal offense, we're all tested like this) is that you don't have the courage it would take to stand by your convictions.

That's not it at all. Statues or art do not define my convictions. I'm happy for others to have convictions opposed to mine, I live and deal with them every day. What I don't like is the attempt at rewriting history via the deletion of parts of it because they offend someone in the present for what happened in the past.

Even Lee himself recognised the danger of symbols to a lost and wrong cause and yet his effigy is misappropriated despite the man's wishes.

That's history for you. Jesus! <-not an exclamation to a god person. An example.

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