Australian Politics Forum - Statue to be removed

Setanta

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #75 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:54pm

Dnarever wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

They are not going to destroy them - they will be moved to museums where that type of history belongs.

These guys were traitors who fought a war against the United States, these statues are inappropriate insulting to Blacks and encouraging to white nationalists.

These are the people who fought for slavery and that is what these statues represent.

That one they are, what about all the others? I remember seeing one decapitated and the head thrown in the water in the UK. You are talking about one when there is a litany of this Taliban like destructiveness.

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AiA

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #76 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 8:04pm

There is a Confederate statue maybe 4-5 blocks from my office. It is one of the many generic statues of a soldier, not of anyone specific, erected in the early 20th century by the powerful lobby "Daughters of the Confederacy." It memorializes no one in particular and was put there as part of that organization's propaganda efforts.

Next to it now stands a memorial to Martin Luther King.

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Gordon

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #77 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 8:10pm

AiA wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 8:04pm:

There is a Confederate statue maybe 4-5 blocks from my office. It is one of the many generic statues of a soldier, not of anyone specific, erected in the early 20th century by the powerful lobby "Daughters of the Confederacy." It memorializes no one in particular and was put there as part of that organization's propaganda efforts.

Next to it now stands a memorial to Martin Luther King.

That sounds like a very balanced approach.

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philperth2010 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20508 Perth Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #78 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 8:43pm White supremacists in America have identified with Confederate statues and used them as a point of protest and white pride....Removing them to a museum is common sense???
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issuevoter

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #79 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 8:46pm

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

I lived in NC for 11 years. I saw Robert E. Lee revered by those who glorify him as if he were a saint. Take a look at the Confederate apologists on Youtube. Also movies like Gods and Generals perpetuate the myth surrounding Lee.

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Belgarion

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #80 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 9:54pm

Dnarever wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

They are not going to destroy them - they will be moved to museums where that type of history belongs.

These guys were traitors who fought a war against the United States, these statues are inappropriate insulting to Blacks and encouraging to white nationalists.

These are the people who fought for slavery and that is what these statues represent.

Traitors were they? Then what do you call the British people in America who rebelled against their lawful government around 80 years earlier?

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AiA Gold Member Offline Posts: 18405 Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #81 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 10:29pm The Old South was a hyper-slave-holding-oligarchy. It wasn't about freedom in the least, at least not for the 99%.
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Mortdooley

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #82 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:19pm

Dnarever wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

They are not going to destroy them - they will be moved to museums where that type of history belongs.

These guys were traitors who fought a war against the United States, these statues are inappropriate insulting to Blacks and encouraging to white nationalists.

These are the people who fought for slavery and that is what these statues represent.

https://www.amren.com/videos/2021/07/some-crazy-things-we-are-supposed-to-believ...

The winners write the history. The Northern States had the votes to end slavery by outlawing it but instead passed the Morrill Tariff. Ending slavery suddenly would have had a massive economic impact so just taxing Southern States more seemed the better opportunity to raise revenue for larger government. The South fought to end control under the more populated and represented Industrialized North and the North fought to preserve the Union or mare accurately the wealth in the South. Part of destroying the South was destroying their economy. Sherman's march to the sea was glamorized but was a scorched earth invasion. His troops burned, raped, murdered and looted the South. He sent almost 300 wagon loads of spoils North. Until the war between the States the Federal Government was subservient to the States. After the war the Federal Government seized the power to become the supreme law of the land, like it or not! Using this example the EU should invade and conquer the UK to bring them back under their control!

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AiA

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #83 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:23pm

Mortdooley wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:19pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:24pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 7:18pm:

Setanta wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 6:57pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 2:06pm:

Tell us, what story do the statues in this case tell? Is it a story of the glorification of slavery and rebellion? Should that be celebrated or condemned? Roll Eyes

It should be remembered. Just because history is messy and often barbaric in hindsight does not mean we should retire to our "safe place" and hug unicorns.

I look at it both ways, but both are about context. Most of the Confederate monuments were erected by a society that had lost many thousands of family members, and whether we agree or not, the spilling of blood overrides all other sensibilities. However, times have changed, as has the demographic. This means those living with these statues get to decide whether or not they represent their ideals. And I am sorry to have to say that if the descendants of the Confederate soldiers wanted those statues so badly, they should have taken them when they moved to better economic locations.

Robert E. Lee was offer the command of the US forces, and he chose to side with the rebel authorities at Montgomery Alabama, who before war broke out, attempted to coerce Kentucky and Missouri into overthrowing the US government in those states, but what is worse is that they sent commissioners to try to get Maryland to do the same. Had they been succussful Washington and the government would have fallen without a shot. So the worship of Lee's statue is not the way to remember history in the United States. Thankfully, the rebels were defeat after they started the war in April 1861

I don't know that anyone worships them. That'd be dodgy. The point is that it is a part of their history whether they like it or not. No history should be forgotten.

There are two sides to this and I'm on the Orwell side.
Rewriting the past: Those who control the past, control the future.

They are not going to destroy them - they will be moved to museums where that type of history belongs.

These guys were traitors who fought a war against the United States, these statues are inappropriate insulting to Blacks and encouraging to white nationalists.

These are the people who fought for slavery and that is what these statues represent.

https://www.amren.com/videos/2021/07/some-crazy-things-we-are-supposed-to-believ...

The winners write the history. The Northern States had the votes to end slavery by outlawing it but instead passed the Morrill Tariff. Ending slavery suddenly would have had a massive economic impact so just taxing Southern States more seemed the better opportunity to raise revenue for larger government. The South fought to end control under the more populated and represented Industrialized North and the North fought to preserve the Union or mare accurately the wealth in the South. Part of destroying the South was destroying their economy. Sherman's march to the sea was glamorized but was a scorched earth invasion. His troops burned, raped, murdered and looted the South. He sent almost 300 wagon loads of spoils North. Until the war between the States the Federal Government was subservient to the States. After the war the Federal Government seized the power to become the supreme law of the land, like it or not! Using this example the EU should invade and conquer the UK to bring them back under their control!

Yes, winners do write the history and a historian just published a book last year that details how the South did just that:

How the South Won the Civil War

https://www.amazon.com/How-South-Won-Civil-War/dp/0190900903

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Mortdooley

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #84 - Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:49pm

The South would have won if its goal was control of the entire country. They could have taken DC in the first few months. All they wanted was independence from an overbearing North and didn't have the resources to succeed because the Union blockades were so effective.

I must have forgotten, which side did Lewis and Clarke fight for?

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AiA

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #85 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:00am

Mortdooley wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:49pm:

The South would have won if its goal was control of the entire country. They could have taken DC in the first few months. All they wanted was independence from an overbearing North and didn't have the resources to succeed because the Union blockades were so effective.

I must have forgotten, which side did Lewis and Clarke fight for?

Mortie, don't insult my intelligence. Exactly how the Daughters of the Confederacy and their powerful allies re-wrote the narrative of the war has been well documented, as how the oligarchy not only continued in the South but was also transported out West. The book I mentioned is fascinating. Give it a read.

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Mortdooley

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #86 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:27am

AiA wrote on Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:00am:

Mortdooley wrote on Jul 11^th, 2021 at 11:49pm:

The South would have won if its goal was control of the entire country. They could have taken DC in the first few months. All they wanted was independence from an overbearing North and didn't have the resources to succeed because the Union blockades were so effective.

I must have forgotten, which side did Lewis and Clarke fight for?

Mortie, don't insult my intelligence. Exactly how the Daughters of the Confederacy and their powerful allies re-wrote the narrative of the war has been well documented, as how the oligarchy not only continued in the South but was also transported out West. The book I mentioned is fascinating. Give it a read.

Then buy it and gift it to me. I read Hillarys book but I checked it out of the Library, I wouldn't put any of my money in the pocket of the clinton crime family. I doubt this book would be purchased by libraries because of low interest.

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Mortdooley

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #87 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 12:51am

Quote:

Many economists contend that the United States is now or is becoming an oligarchy. In saying this, they point to the country’s worsening income inequality and social stratification, two of the main characteristics of a wealth-based oligarchy. Between 1979 and 2005, the incomes of the top 1% of U.S. workers rose by 400%. According to a 2104 study by political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page, the U.S. Congress passes legislation benefiting the wealthiest 10% of Americans more often than measures benefiting the poorest 50%.

The Democrats are the oligarchy, they manage their ignorant voters selling them on the idea of class inequity. Congress passes laws that benefit the top 10%, check it out. You may be in the top 10% yourself, I am and it doesn't take millions to get there. When people piss away the opportunity to get a useful education and spend their income on bobbles and bullshit it is their own failure. Not the system! There is an interesting bunch of YouTube videos about what the poor do that the wealthy don't and what the wealthy do that the poor don't do. Check them out.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Statue to be removed
Reply #88 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 2:28am

Just to remind you all - Thomas Jefferson, President of the Confederate States, was prepared to go the Emancipation route to garner more troops to defend the South, and many Blacks were prepared to do so.

So the statue destruction has nothing to do with 'oppression' or 'discrimination' or 'slavery' at all.

Just saying...

Also saying - there were Irish Brigades on BOTH sides - who suffered terrible losses - in the hope that 'fighting for freedom' would mean the Americans would fight for Irish freedom as well...

It's not a simple matter of Black and White.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85108 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: Statue to be removed Reply #89 - Jul 12^th, 2021 at 2:30am
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged