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British Muslim MP promoting censorship (Read 3771 times)
freediver
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British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm
 
Didn't take long

Naz Shah’s argument on blasphemy should be rejected

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2021/07/naz-shahs-argument-on-blasphemy-should-be-rejected

Posted: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 by Chris Sloggett

The Labour MP has effectively called for a blasphemy law as she highlighted the "emotional harm" caused by depictions of Muhammad. Freedom of expression on religion mustn't be up for negotiation, says Chris Sloggett.

A speech in parliament by Labour MP Naz Shah has set tongues wagging on social media this week.

Addressing the current police and crime bill, Shah highlighted the government's argument that courts should be able to recognise the "emotional harm" caused by damage to statues and memorials. Her party is opposing the bill, so you might have thought she'd critique this argument. But instead she expanded on it, by drawing a link to the "emotional harm" caused by cartoons of Islam's prophet Muhammad.

After saying that for Muslims, "there is not a single thing in the world that we commemorate and honour more than our beloved prophet", Shah added that it causes "unbearable" emotional harm when "bigots and racists defame, slander or abuse" him.

She went on to criticise cartoons explicitly and ask whether there should be a "hierarchy of sentiments". Her implication was that religious figures such as Muhammad were being denied equal protection to secular ones such as Oliver Cromwell and Winston Churchill.

On Twitter she topped this off with the hashtag "#NotJustACartoon". Her speech has been shared thousands of times – including, approvingly, by some other politicians.

Her argument is worth listening to, not least because it helps to draw attention to the much stronger case in reverse. It shows that justifying clampdowns on expression on the basis that they cause "emotional harm" opens the door to various censorious demands, as the writer Timandra Harkness noted.

But there's also a significant distinction between the two acts which Shah referred to. It's not criminal damage to draw a cartoon. Damaging a physical object in a public space isn't equivalent to creating a likeness that offends someone's sentiments. Drawing a cartoon that mocks Muhammad doesn't infringe on a Muslim's right to revere him unless, for example, you put the cartoon on the door of a mosque or a private home. Shah's case isn't an argument for equality; it's that all mockery of Muhammad should be off limits, for everyone.

Much of the response to the recent Batley affair appeared to assume that Britain doesn't really have to worry about blasphemy taboos and laws any more. Shah's comments are a reminder that this complacency is misguided. Whether she wants an explicit blasphemy law, or just an implicit one, the result would be alarming.

Allowing people to criticise, critique and mock religion has been fundamental to human progress. If people can laugh at a religious figure, they can challenge or disbelieve them, and they can think for themselves. If they can't, by contrast, the fundamentalists' demands will keep coming, as the Batley saga and the killing of Samuel Paty have shown in recent months alone.

If you give up freedom of expression on religion, what other restrictions on this fundamental right do you accept? What stops someone using the taboo against depicting Muhammad to justify other forms of censorship? And if you hand away freedom of expression, what other rights are on the table?

The principled argument alone should be enough to defeat Shah's. But there's a risk that some in Britain see this issue purely as a tussle between competing communities. In recent years much of the response to rows over blasphemy has been marked by a patronising assumption that all Muslims are a monolithic bloc who will be offended. (Ironically there's a similarity between the arguments of parts of the multiculturalist left and those of the far right in that regard, although they differ on the way to respond.)

This is also a significant error. Restricting free speech harms minorities within Muslim communities, who may question or challenge aspects of their faith or wish to renounce it entirely. It empowers reactionary Muslim 'community leaders', and undermines the case for human rights in countries where reactionary forms of Islam are in power.

As Times columnist Matthew Parris put it during the recent Batley affair: "Who are the bullied here? The imams who cry 'persecution' because they think their version of Muhammad has been dishonoured? Or the youth at Batley Grammar who is beginning to question the cruel and rigid certainties he has heard in the mosque?"

A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.
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Bias_2012
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #1 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #2 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it.
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #3 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:40pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


 


So what would the punishment for blasphemy be?

The Saudis chop your head off Iran hangs blasphemers the murder of Salman Taseer in Pakistan shows it's considered blasphemy to even oppose blasphemy laws.

Why do morally bankrupt leftists like Brian, Greg, Mothra and Smithy along with arsie defend this religion that still has the death penalty in Islamic countries for blasphemy?
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #4 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:42pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 



Show me where I said she wasn't entitled to her opinion or that she was a second class citizen

Engage your brain before spewing false delusional assumptions


She should have realized before she even tried, that "you don't bite the hand that feeds you" ... she has reached the status of MP, and now she wants to abolish one of the most important fundamentals of the political mechanism that got her elected - Freedom of expression and freedom of speech


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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #5 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
Didn't take long

Naz Shah’s argument on blasphemy should be rejected

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2021/07/naz-shahs-argument-on-blasphemy-should-be-rejected

Posted: Fri, 09 Jul 2021 by Chris Sloggett

The Labour MP has effectively called for a blasphemy law

A speech in parliament by Labour MP Naz Shah has set tongues wagging on social media this week.


After saying that for Muslims, "there is not a single thing in the world that we commemorate and honour more than our beloved prophet", Shah added that it causes "unbearable" emotional harm when "bigots and racists defame, slander or abuse" him.



There are many sahih ahadith that say Muhammad was white so how is it racist for white people to criticise him?

The Islamic texts do enough to defame and slander Muhammad all we have to do is quote them.  Roll Eyes

Quote:
It was narrated from Anas, that the Messenger of Allah had a female slave with whom he had intercourse, but 'Aishah and Hafsah would not leave him alone until he said that she was forbidden for himThen Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, revealed:
"O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' until the end of the Verse.

https://sunnah.com/nasai:3959


Muhammad had a coptic christian slave called Maria who he had sex with against the wishes of his wives, Allah said it's halal for muslim men to have sex with their slaves against the wishes of their wives.

Muhammad was a warlord who attacked people without warning killing the men and enslaving the women and children. This is how he met his wife Juwariya does it sound like he wined and dined her?

Quote:
32  The Book of Jihad and Expeditions

Chapter: Permissibility of raiding the Kuffar, who have been reached with the call of Islam, without giving prior warning

I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam.The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1730a


Did this labor MP say this about a man who attacked people without warning killed the men who fought married the pretty ladies from their tribes then sold women and children into slavery along with having sex with his slaves against the wishes of his wives? "there is not a single thing in the world that we commemorate and honour more than our beloved prophet"
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #6 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:02pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


The thing is Brian, she wants to have her opinion forced upon everyone else. You do see that, don't you?  Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #7 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm
 
Belgarion wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


The thing is Brian, she wants to have her opinion forced upon everyone else. You do see that, don't you?  Roll Eyes


How is that different from any other politician?  How is it different from any other person, Belgarion?  We are all opinionated, yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk.  Islamophobia.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Bias_2012
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #8 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 11:02pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm:
yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?


Just another false assumption

It's not her that's being condemned, it's the censorship she's proposing
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #9 - Jul 11th, 2021 at 11:56pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 11:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm:
yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?


Just another false assumption

It's not her that's being condemned, it's the censorship she's proposing


I was going to reply Brian, but I think this says it best.
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #10 - Jul 12th, 2021 at 6:44am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm:
Belgarion wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


The thing is Brian, she wants to have her opinion forced upon everyone else. You do see that, don't you?  Roll Eyes


How is that different from any other politician?  How is it different from any other person, Belgarion?  We are all opinionated, yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk.  Islamophobia.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


I don't see any other politician trying to reintroduce blasphemy laws Brian. Only the token Muslim one.

Do we really need to explain what the thread is about to you? It's really not that complicated.
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Brian Ross
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #11 - Jul 12th, 2021 at 2:41pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:42pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


Show me where I said she wasn't entitled to her opinion or that she was a second class citizen


That is effectively what you are saying.  You are implying because she is a Muslim her opinions are wrong and she shouldn't be voicing them.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes



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Brian Ross
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #12 - Jul 12th, 2021 at 2:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 12th, 2021 at 6:44am:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm:
Belgarion wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


The thing is Brian, she wants to have her opinion forced upon everyone else. You do see that, don't you?  Roll Eyes


How is that different from any other politician?  How is it different from any other person, Belgarion?  We are all opinionated, yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Tsk, tsk.  Islamophobia.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes


I don't see any other politician trying to reintroduce blasphemy laws Brian. Only the token Muslim one.

Do we really need to explain what the thread is about to you? It's really not that complicated.


You answer my questions, Freediver and I might answer yours.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Brian Ross
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #13 - Jul 12th, 2021 at 2:44pm
 
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 11:02pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 10:40pm:
yet she is to be condemned for doing what every other person does because she is a Muslim?


Just another false assumption

It's not her that's being condemned, it's the censorship she's proposing


Why then the need to mention her religion at all?  It is an attempt to rile up the Islamophobes.  It has succeeded.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: British Muslim MP promoting censorship
Reply #14 - Jul 12th, 2021 at 5:47pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 12th, 2021 at 2:41pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:42pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 9:23pm:
Bias_2012 wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 8:37pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 11th, 2021 at 7:44pm:
A cohesive democratic society that values the rights of all its citizens should never accept the idea that any religious figure can be above criticism. The case should be made and remade: freedom of expression on religion isn't up for negotiation.



Couldn't have put it better myself


Labour MP Naz Shah has to realize she is living in a Western cultural society that allowed her to become an MP

It's not prudent for her to try and change the basic fundamentals of that society that gave her so much opportunity in life ... besides, the Labor party of the UK probably don't agree either, that she should try to bring in her Sharia style of censorship 


So, this MP is not entitled to have an opinion of her own?  Because she is a Muslim she is a second-class citizen?  Oh, dearie, dearie, me, and your the one who is always rabbiting on about democracy.  You do realise what the fundamental principle of democracy is?  All voices are equal.  You have betrayed the very concept you like to promote.  Tsk, tsk.  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

BTW, I don't agree with her opinion but she is entitled to have it. 


Show me where I said she wasn't entitled to her opinion or that she was a second class citizen


That is effectively what you are saying.  You are implying because she is a Muslim her opinions are wrong and she shouldn't be voicing them.  Tsk, tsk.   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes





She is in a position of power Brian. Do try to keep up. It's really not that complicated.

Let me spell it out for you so you don't spend the next 10 pages tying yourself in knots of spineless apologetics: Muslims in a position of power are a threat to freedom of speech, and pretty much everything else.
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