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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Socialism
Reply #120 - Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Socialism
Reply #121 - Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:15pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 17^th, 2021 at 12:39pm:

I can see an uncomprehending US becoming increasingly desperate in the next decade, as the Chinese economy continues on its unstoppable growth trajectory...

I bet you don't see anything from that little dark dingy cubicle you're posting from.

And I also bet you're an external paid troll too.

So how much does Chairman Xi Jinping pay you for each post you make from your little cubicle there?

1 or 2 cups of noodles per day?

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mothra

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Re: Socialism
Reply #122 - Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Socialism
Reply #123 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 1:40am

Frank wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 8:35pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 3:04pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 21^st, 2021 at 12:03am:

What IS socialism to your mind, ducky? Are you able to say?

Are YOU able to consider an economy that works for all?

....which is Bernie Sanders' definition of 'socialism', not bogged down by historical precedents which have nothing to do with the current global reality, in which the market economy has achieved global dominance after the fall of the USSR.

You are just using your anti-"socialist" rant to avoid implementation of an economy that works for all, to serve your own greedy purposes.

Every economy works for all. Just not equally, regardless of effort and contribution. The question is - what to reward and what not to.
Equality - ie an economy that works for all, regardless of contribution and effort - is idiotic. It's the socialist eyewash that seduces the stupid, the resentful and the envious .

So how do those 'envious' etc get a shot at the big time? Just asking.....

For those of you with a mind, I plague every ideologist - I play no favourites here.... or anywhere else....

How does a poor boy with a huge IQ get to be a doctor when his parents beat him, starved him, deprived him, and punished him for being born, and his entire society worked against him since he was a peasant? By accepting that private school twerps who have no real idea should be the top guns?

Grow me a life.... you might learn something from doing so.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Socialism
Reply #124 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 1:42am

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

Fair point - as long as all are treated equally...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Socialism
Reply #125 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 5:48am

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

That's true. The ideal of socialism is noble.

The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.

Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

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mothra

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Re: Socialism
Reply #126 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 5:48am:

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

That's true. The ideal of socialism is noble.

The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.

Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106403 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #127 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:52am
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mothra Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 35545 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #128 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:58am Bobby. wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:52am: https://www.ozpolitic.com/album/forum-attachments/Socialism.jpg Mice don't actually like cheese overly, and it is very bad for them. Just thought something educational should come out of your ridiculous meme.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Socialism
Reply #129 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:01am

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

Yes, the Scandinavian countries are the usual goto's for the success of socialism established by popular demand.

They are also constitutional monarchies (Scandinavia being Norway, Sweden, and Denmark).

It is notable that those European countries with constitutional monarchies tend to be remarkably stable and peaceful.

Maybe its constitutional monarchies that deliver the stability which many ascribe to socialism (particularly regarding Scandinavia).

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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #130 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:03am

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 5:48am:

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

That's true. The ideal of socialism is noble.

The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.

Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

You are confusing social services and social cohesion and solidarity with socialism. None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist, never were.
If China and North Korea were like Sweden we would have no problems with them. But, alas, they are socialists, so we have problems.

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mothra

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Re: Socialism
Reply #131 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:05am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:01am:

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

Yes, the Scandinavian countries are the usual goto's for the success of socialism established by popular demand.

They are also constitutional monarchies (Scandinavia being Norway, Sweden, and Denmark).

It is notable that those European countries with constitutional monarchies tend to be remarkably stable and peaceful.

Maybe its constitutional monarchies that deliver the stability which many ascribe to socialism (particularly regarding Scandinavia).

And maybe it's because the overwhelming number of citizens are housed, educated, fed, employed, medicated and the beneficiaries of benevolent justice?

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mothra

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Re: Socialism
Reply #132 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:06am

Frank wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:03am:

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 5:48am:

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

That's true. The ideal of socialism is noble.

The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.

Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

You are confusing social services and social cohesion and solidarity with socialism. None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist, never were.

They all have strong Socialist policies.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Socialism
Reply #133 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:15am

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:05am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:01am:

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

Yes, the Scandinavian countries are the usual goto's for the success of socialism established by popular demand.

They are also constitutional monarchies (Scandinavia being Norway, Sweden, and Denmark).

It is notable that those European countries with constitutional monarchies tend to be remarkably stable and peaceful.

Maybe its constitutional monarchies that deliver the stability which many ascribe to socialism (particularly regarding Scandinavia).

And maybe it's because the overwhelming number of citizens are housed, educated, fed, employed, medicated and the beneficiaries of benevolent justice?

Isn't that an example of respecting human dignity, rather than necessarily a result of political socialism?

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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #134 - Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:18am

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:06am:

Frank wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 7:03am:

mothra wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 6:50am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2021 at 5:48am:

mothra wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 11:41pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2021 at 9:00pm:

Socialism is one of the greatest ideals... But, like all ideals, the closer you get to them, the greater the cost... i.e. If everyone's equal, then no one can be greater than, nor rise above anyone else.

And then it becomes insidious, such that it is an imposed gravity to all those who can and want to rise as their ability would take them.

There is nothing in Socialism that dictates one cannot strive for excellence. The point is that the roots get nourished, not just the top of the tree.

That's true. The ideal of socialism is noble.

The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.

Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

Instead of tiredly relaying worst case scenarios from the past, think upon how aspects of Socialism are applied to the most successful countries on the planet.

If you need a nudge, have a look at Scandinavia.

You are confusing social services and social cohesion and solidarity with socialism. None of the Scandinavian countries are socialist, never were.

They all have strong Socialist policies.

They don't. They have social democratic policies which are as far from socialism as national socialist policies. Socialism nationalises capital, social democracy does not. Huge difference, the heart of the matter.
All of the West has social democratic policies, a.k.a are welfare states. But they are not socialists.

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