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Socialism (Read 13975 times)
Frank
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Re: Socialism
Reply #150 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:40pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Oh, nice indeed. Utopian socialist communes are thriving everywhere, ever since. Oh yes.




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Re: Socialism
Reply #151 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:45pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Marx and Engels, differentiated, however, their own scientific conception of socialism from Owen's societies. They argued that Owen's plan, to create a model socialist utopia to coexist with contemporary society and prove its superiority over time, was insufficient to create a new society. In their view, Owen was a Utopian, since his objective was "to discover a new and more perfect system of social order and to impose this upon society". They believed that socialism would erupt from within the class conflict itself as a result of the inherent contradictions of capitalism. Moreover, socialism could only be achieved by violent revolution, since the bourgeoisie would always be able to deflect and block peaceful attempts.
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Re: Socialism
Reply #152 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:48pm
 
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:04pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:48am:
The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.


Correct; but the 2nd part of that famous phrase needs modification, to take account of the role of incentive and greed in the productivity of individuals. In other words, equality of outcome is not desirable, to maximize productivity; "need" must be modified by reward, meaning that some will have greater access to discretionary spending than others, owing to greater contribution.

Now the value of the particular contribution is up for debate, and this is where the Job Guarantee of MMT comes in: there is no special contribution made by the CEO of Colacola who is flogging diabetes and obesity (ie junk consumerism) than the worker conscientiously tending a public garden. In fact the latter adds to the community's amenity, while the former destroys the community' health.

Quote:
Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.


Correct, and addressed above.

Given the acceptance of the  current 'invisible hand'  market economy, established in most of the world since the collapse of the USSR, MMT offers a way to balance public sector outcomes, on behalf of 'common prosperity'; with private sector outcomes, on behalf of private greed and personal enrichment.

What is common and ultimately fatal to those socialist countries that have taken the well-worn and inevitable path into authoritarianism before totalitarianism, is gargantuan corruption as the needs of the political elite extends to needing to be, say, billionaires and/or impose absolute control over the people they oppress.

The Chinese cartel will prove itself to be the most corrupt political elite in human history... They'll easily beat out Stalin, Mao, the Kims and all the Caesars combined... If they haven't already.
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Frank
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Re: Socialism
Reply #153 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 6:00pm
 
There are no checks and balances in socialism. That's why it is invariably and inevitably a fccd experiment.

The VERY IDEA of checks and balances, separation of powers, regular review and correction by the people are essentially conservative, cautious principles, not revolutionary, world changing progressive ones. When you have absolute theoretical certainty you do not have caution, checks, reviews, etc.

Socialism is for over-confident, sheltered morons - ie middle class little bourgeois pricks.

.





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Re: Socialism
Reply #154 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 6:02pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 6:00pm:
There are no checks and balances in socialism. That's why it is invariably and inevitably a fccd experiment.

The VERY IDEA of checks and balances, separation of powers, regular review and correction by the people are essentially conservative, cautious principles, not revolutionary, world changing progressive ones. When you have absolute theoretical certainty you do not have caution, checks, reviews, etc.

And, crucially, no independent fourth estate, to independently investigate corruption.
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Re: Socialism
Reply #155 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 9:52pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:40pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Oh, nice indeed. Utopian socialist communes are thriving everywhere, ever since. Oh yes.



Well on the upside, we can thank him for the 8 hour work day.

Mind you and as to Marx... he was not impressed with Socialists...

It is no wonder that Marx condemned the bourgeois radicals as well as the Utopian Socialists. Men like Fourier (see Lecture 21), Owen and Saint-Simon (see Lecture 22), or P. J. Proudhon gave society panaceas -- bandaids. Marx offered practical solution based upon the inexorable laws of history itself. Where the Utopian Socialists were imbued with moralisms (Robert Owen is perhaps the classic case), Marx saw revolutionary praxis (practice). Marx detested romanticism, emotionalism, sentimentalism and humanitarianism of any kind. They were bourgeois. He did not want to appeal to the idealistic feelings of his audience. The manifestoes, histories, outlines and critiques which he wrote make little or no reference to moral progress, eternal justice, the rights of man, the fight for civilization or any other species of bourgeois rhetoric. The class war must and will be fought.

http://historyguide.org/intellect/lecture24a.html#:~:text=Where%20the%20Utopian%20Socialists%20were%20imbued%20with%20moralisms,appeal%20to%20the%20idealistic%20feelings%20of%20his%20audience.

Makes me wonder why the Moth raves about Marx.
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« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2021 at 10:27pm by Nom de Plume »  
 
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Socialism
Reply #156 - Nov 23rd, 2021 at 11:53pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:48pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:04pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:48am:
The Marxist, 'From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs', could have been lifted from the bible.


Correct; but the 2nd part of that famous phrase needs modification, to take account of the role of incentive and greed in the productivity of individuals. In other words, equality of outcome is not desirable, to maximize productivity; "need" must be modified by reward, meaning that some will have greater access to discretionary spending than others, owing to greater contribution.

Now the value of the particular contribution is up for debate, and this is where the Job Guarantee of MMT comes in: there is no special contribution made by the CEO of Colacola who is flogging diabetes and obesity (ie junk consumerism) than the worker conscientiously tending a public garden. In fact the latter adds to the community's amenity, while the former destroys the community' health.

Quote:
Until the 'realpolitik' of human nature is applied to it.

Sure, to each according to his needs, and when members of a privileged power elite decide that a government-purchased Maserati and holiday homes are in accordance with their needs?

How do they pay for privileging the elites? By 'economising' on the basic needs of the masses.

As was a common joke in eastern Europe, 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.


Correct, and addressed above.

Given the acceptance of the  current 'invisible hand'  market economy, established in most of the world since the collapse of the USSR, MMT offers a way to balance public sector outcomes, on behalf of 'common prosperity'; with private sector outcomes, on behalf of private greed and personal enrichment.

What is common and ultimately fatal to those socialist countries that have taken the well-worn and inevitable path into authoritarianism before totalitarianism, is gargantuan corruption as the needs of the political elite extends to needing to be, say, billionaires and/or impose absolute control over the people they oppress.

The Chinese cartel will prove itself to be the most corrupt political elite in human history... They'll easily beat out Stalin, Mao, the Kims and all the Caesars combined... If they haven't already.


So my point about moderate and extreme is taken?  ONLY those countries that take that path fail and/or implode?  The others, which employ facets of socialism alongside facets of capitalism, remain safe and successful?

There's one hell of a lot of authoritarianism going down here and now in this allegedly only remotely socialist country.... so it seems this impulse to overbearing power is not only the province of the extreme socialists...

I believe, with further thought, you may find that this impulse to overbearing power is a common factor in any society/nation... it's just that in some it is nipped in the bud and the perpetrators banished to the outer darkness... some nations have a sensible enough electorate to not let the twerps go too far...

That said - I still say the labeling of Chairman Dan as a Lockdown Fascist is a bit much... stay home you dopey Victorians and get your vaccinations.... you're stuffing things up for the rest of us...


Grappler Footnote:-  Such a pleasure to meet and talk with ordinary folk who, in the main, hold much the same views as I do... vox populi.... met a couple today at the mechanic's and the lady said that we suffer and endure under a 'dualocracy' of two parties separated by the thickness of a piece of toilet paper..... segues into my Government Of Two Parties.... so many people hold these views - how is it that the Twin Torturers keep 'winning' elections? Are elections real... let's see when the council election comes along and I'm working in the voting place for the Guv .... I get to take part in the initial count of votes...... and party politics has no place in local government that is intended to provide direct services to the electorate.... no wasting our rates on their social bullshit.....
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Grappler Deep State Feller
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Re: Socialism
Reply #157 - Nov 24th, 2021 at 12:00am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 6:02pm:
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 6:00pm:
There are no checks and balances in socialism. That's why it is invariably and inevitably a fccd experiment.

The VERY IDEA of checks and balances, separation of powers, regular review and correction by the people are essentially conservative, cautious principles, not revolutionary, world changing progressive ones. When you have absolute theoretical certainty you do not have caution, checks, reviews, etc.

And, crucially, no independent fourth estate, to independently investigate corruption.



Well - we scarcely have that here... apart from the ABC which is always under fire for being too 'lefty' ...

Federal ICAC NOW!!  See how they run like pigs from a gun....see how they fly.... theoretical certainty is an oxymoron... some of the more rabid 'feminist' ideas such as castrating or aborting  boy children and only keeping the best specimens of men for breeding purposes in cages - was dismissed as 'just theory'... seriously?  What kind of 'theory' comes up with that sort of insanity?

Now 'rape with the eyes' - exclusively the province of a novel - has become part and parcel of the minefield for men in academic houses of Unlearning... don't you DARE admire a beautiful piece across the room as she sylphs in (Mama Mia!.. the unconscious grace of a beautiful woman designed and built to attract attention) ...  it's a wonder the human race can survive its own stupidity in allowing such nonsense to even take hold....
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Re: Socialism
Reply #158 - Nov 24th, 2021 at 11:28pm
 
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:39pm:
You don't have to buy and consume Colacola, you know.


That's because I know, but many people are well-trained little foot-soldiers of the junk consumer society, which exists only to enrich CEOs at the expense of society's well-being.

"Things go better with (this sugar-water junk concoction)"....and they believe it. 

Quote:
And the Gulags and various re-education camps are seen as 'public gardens' for the greater good.
I am all for the greater public good as long as it's not some monster like Stalin, Mao, Xi or Kim is telling me what it is.


And are you for education in public schools alerting young students of the perils of junk consumerism?

I hear the cries of 'nanny-statism' coming from the profit seeking junk peddlers, even now.

Given the acceptance of the  current 'invisible hand'  market economy, established in most of the world since the collapse of the USSR, MMT offers a way to balance public sector outcomes, on behalf of 'common prosperity'; with private sector outcomes, on behalf of private greed and personal enrichment.

Quote:
The market economy pre-dates the collapse of the Soviet Union by about 300 years, at least.


I should have said , "re-established in most of the world", (after the demise of the USSR).

The USSR, with a 'planned economy',  was the first attempt to deal with the classical market economy's  massive failure to implement the common good, eg, failure which Marx observed in children of working class families forced to work in coal mines instead of receiving an education; and Dickens observed in Britain at the height of Empire, scarred by the  disgrace of the poverty in the 'work houses'.   

The USSR failed because it failed to take into account the creativity which is driven by greed and incentive in 'invisible hand' markets,  but the job of balancing market outcomes among self-interested individuals, on the one hand, with public well-being on the other  (eg no homeless people) remains a work in progress.


Quote:
What I like about conservatism is that it gets on with life without needing some 'economic theory of life', like Marxism or MMT.



"Gets on with life" all right,  with homeless people cluttering footpaths in Sydney and Melbourne, and Sydney's underground rail stations looking like ME refugee camps at night.

Quote:
Experimental science has made a huge improvement to human life. You cannot say the same for experimental 'social science'. Society is what people make it among themselves, not something that a theoretician, sitting in a library or a monster sitting in a politburo, tells them to make it.


So sayeth the 'comfortable conservative".....yet 'the dismal science' can be what we make it.
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« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2021 at 11:59pm by thegreatdivide »  
 
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Re: Socialism
Reply #159 - Nov 24th, 2021 at 11:49pm
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 11:53pm:
That said - I still say the labeling of Chairman Dan as a Lockdown Fascist is a bit much... stay home you dopey Victorians and get your vaccinations.... you're stuffing things up for the rest of us...


Hm.... you are not the mindless Libertarian I thought you were (..."get off your asses, you useless drunk abos...")


Grappler Footnote:-  Such a pleasure to meet and talk with ordinary folk who, in the main, hold much the same views as I do... vox populi.... met a couple today at the mechanic's and the lady said that we suffer and endure under a 'dualocracy' of two parties separated by the thickness of a piece of toilet paper..... segues into my Government Of Two Parties.... so many people hold these views - how is it that the Twin Torturers keep 'winning' elections? Are elections real... let's see when the council election comes along and I'm working in the voting place for the Guv .... I get to take part in the initial count of votes...... and party politics has no place in local government that is intended to provide direct services to the electorate.... no wasting our rates on their social bullshit.....
[/quote]

Government pared -back to the local level? How does a local council trade with the rest of the world?
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Re: Socialism
Reply #160 - Nov 25th, 2021 at 5:57am
 
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 11:53pm:
I believe, with further thought, you may find that this impulse to overbearing power is a common factor in any society/nation... it's just that in some it is nipped in the bud and the perpetrators banished to the outer darkness... some nations have a sensible enough electorate to not let the twerps go too far...

Hardly requires further thought. It's not a feature that manifests out of the blue in society or nation; the exhilarating, visceral sense of dominance is something children comprehend by the time they're 5.
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Re: Socialism
Reply #161 - Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:24am
 
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:40pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Oh, nice indeed. Utopian socialist communes are thriving everywhere, ever since. Oh yes.



Ahhh Robert Owen. My Marxist Economics Lecturer introduced us to him.

I'm waiting for someone....anyone really ... to point out the culmination of the Robert Owen experiment.

It proved to be a big failure.

The entire organisation went bankrupt.

Boom 💥

Next?





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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Re: Socialism
Reply #162 - Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:26am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:24am:
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:40pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Oh, nice indeed. Utopian socialist communes are thriving everywhere, ever since. Oh yes.



Ahhh Robert Owen. My Marxist Economics Lecturer introduced us to him.

I'm waiting for someone....anyone really ... to point out the culmination of the Robert Owen experiment.

It proved to be a big failure.

The entire organisation went bankrupt.

Boom 💥

Next?








LOL avoiding questions in other threads Lyin' Lisa....tsk tsk
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Socialism
Reply #163 - Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:30am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:24am:
Frank wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:40pm:
thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 5:03pm:
Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 4:47pm:
A welsh textiles manufacturer and philanthropist, Robert Owen.


Nice to gain interesting information like this,  a relief from  the usual ideological rants from the Right, when discussing 'socialism'.

Oh, nice indeed. Utopian socialist communes are thriving everywhere, ever since. Oh yes.



Ahhh Robert Owen. My Marxist Economics Lecturer introduced us to him.

I'm waiting for someone....anyone really ... to point out the culmination of the Robert Owen experiment.

It proved to be a big failure.

The entire organisation went bankrupt.

Boom 💥

Next?






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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Socialism
Reply #164 - Nov 25th, 2021 at 7:33am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 25th, 2021 at 5:57am:
Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 23rd, 2021 at 11:53pm:
I believe, with further thought, you may find that this impulse to overbearing power is a common factor in any society/nation... it's just that in some it is nipped in the bud and the perpetrators banished to the outer darkness... some nations have a sensible enough electorate to not let the twerps go too far...

Hardly requires further thought. It's not a feature that manifests out of the blue in society or nation; the exhilarating, visceral sense of dominance is something children comprehend by the time they're 5.


Dear God .... North Nong don't you ever sleep?

5.50 am ffs!

Ever heard of REM level sleep?

No wonder you're all over the place posting utter dribble!
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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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