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Lisa Jones

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Re: Socialism
Reply #195 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:44pm

Nom de Plume wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 1:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 8:22pm:

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 1:11pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 7:24am:

Ahhh Robert Owen. My Marxist Economics Lecturer introduced us to him.

I'm waiting for someone....anyone really ... to point out the culmination of the Robert Owen experiment.

It proved to be a big failure.

The entire organisation went bankrupt.

Boom 💥

Next?

Next is the search for an economy that works for all which is a work in progress.

Unfortunately for your current market-economy orthodoxy, its inadequacies remain a pressing problem which people are demanding must be solved. The 'dismal science' is what we make it; of course self-interest will always be an obstacle to improving the market economy so that it works for all, but the solution will always continue to be sought....which is what politics is all about.

Owen was on the right side of the search, unlike ideologues for the status quo.

You do realise that you've just admitted that socialism has indeed failed 😂🤣😆

And do you realize, Lisa that you have yet to explain WHY Owen's 'Utopian' communities failed? And given that you claim to have studied the topic, it is rather disingenuous of you to withhold the reasoning behind your claim.

But never fear, The Credible Poster is here to do what Lisa cant or wont!

You see, it all comes down to the philosophy of 'individualism' which dominates Western culture.

We Westerners want to explore, as individuals our own unique role in society, rather than have that decided for us by Utopian overlords.

Of course there is so much more to say, as Lisa would be aware... So I'll let Lisa pick up the mantel, so that she may redeem herself from her disingenuous contribution.

Over to you Lisa...

Why would I need to explain WHY it failed?

Ohhh this is some Uni essay task you've got and you would like me to do it for you. My bad 😐

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75097 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #196 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 7:47pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 6:42pm: Your ignorance is your bliss then. none more ignorant than you and you don't sound very blissful
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Socialism
Reply #197 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:01pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 2:02pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 9:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 8:27pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 1:57pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 9:39am:

I just don't get it?

There has not been a genuine socialist in the politics of a major western nation in at least 70 years.

Why all the fuss about nothing ?

You can't see the fuss in what you've just stated?

No.

Then you will never see it. Not even after another 70 years has passed.

Yes - Free of your insane paranoia about nothing.

Not a bad thing.

Your ignorance is your bliss then.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Dnarever

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Re: Socialism
Reply #198 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:51pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:01pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 2:02pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 9:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 8:27pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 1:57pm:

Dnarever wrote on Nov 25^th, 2021 at 9:39am:

I just don't get it?

There has not been a genuine socialist in the politics of a major western nation in at least 70 years.

Why all the fuss about nothing ?

You can't see the fuss in what you've just stated?

No.

Then you will never see it. Not even after another 70 years has passed.

Yes - Free of your insane paranoia about nothing.

Not a bad thing.

Your ignorance is your bliss then.

What socialist ? Where ?

Load of garbage there are none.

For all those many years there were no reds under the bed - it was just a typical baseless scare campaign.

A little more social policy in the mix would be a very good thing.

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Dnarever

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Re: Socialism
Reply #199 - Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:57pm

aquascoot wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 3:48pm:

lol market capitalism is awesome

look how much better your phone, your tv, your car, your fridge is compared to 20 years ago.

thats capitalism baby

you have to provide great services and products or you disappear.

big government (which is the problem) does not have to provide great service at all.

and the results are there for all to see

crap schools, crap emergency departments, crap public transport, crap roads (apart from the awesome toll roads).

the arguement isnt socialism v capitalism

it is big government v the private sector.

and the private sector absolutely shiiits on government in any competition.

In all the biggest economic downturns all capitalists implement a socialist bailout solution.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Socialism
Reply #200 - Nov 27^th, 2021 at 1:26pm

Frank wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 2:38pm:

But didn't live to see Western capitalist welfare states that surpassed even his wilder dreams without actually turning socialist. How good is that?!?!

You mean in the golden days of capitalism soon after WW2 c.1950 -1970?

But since neoliberalism with its 'small government/ privatization agenda usurped the funding of Keynesian welfare states (from the 1970's on), full employment and secure jobs for all have increasingly retreated, so that Sydney's rail subway stations at night now resemble ME refugee camps. "Welfare" indeed....

Solution?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Socialism
Reply #201 - Nov 27^th, 2021 at 1:50pm

aquascoot wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 3:48pm:

lol market capitalism is awesome

look how much better your phone, your tv, your car, your fridge is compared to 20 years ago.

thats capitalism baby

you have to provide great services and products or you disappear.

big government (which is the problem) does not have to provide great service at all.

and the results are there for all to see

crap schools, crap emergency departments, crap public transport, crap roads (apart from the awesome toll roads).

the arguement isnt socialism v capitalism

it is big government v the private sector.

and the private sector absolutely shiiits on government in any competition.

The private sector's role is efficient allocation of resources driven by incentive and greed. That's good, but it cannot be the entire solution for maximizing the nation's sustainable development, because the private sector needs public education and public infrastructure as a base on which to function.

Now, given the widely differing capabilities of individuals to compete in private markets, government will be required to regulate private sector competition (just as referees are required in a sports arena, to avoid anarchy), and to provide essential services which low wage or unemployed people cannot provide for themselves.

Morover, as has already been mentioned, the private sector market economy is subject to recessions which can have scarring effects on entire generations, the public sector is required to deal with these capitalist market disasters.

As a matter of fact, with a global pandemic still breathing down our backs, government will need to support workers in badly affected industries for some time.

The Oz government has already notched-up a debt of c $1 trillion in the pandemic...now that's BIG government....

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thegreatdivide

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Re: Socialism
Reply #202 - Nov 28^th, 2021 at 2:19pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:01pm:

Your ignorance is your bliss then.

http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?m=20211125

Remarks from the comments section below the linked article:

“The rule of the rich,” in one form or another, has been all that humankind has known since we evolved from the hunter/gatherer tribe and early agrarian village. So said Edward Bellamy in the late 19th Century and things haven’t changed but gotten worse. Truth be told, we’ve been relentlessly conditioned over millennia to fear our overlords, a deeply ingrained, almost instinctive fear not easily overcome. Note the terror and abject submission in this single quote: “if you MMTers have your way, the global financial markets will close Britain down.” Bill and other MMTers can brush off this threat, knowing better because they’ve freed their minds and summoned their courage. As for most of the rest of us, we quiver in our boots when we hear words like these and beg to continue licking the boots of our overlords. THAT is what MMT is up against–far, far, more than the challenge of winning an intellectual argument.

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13126 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #203 - Nov 28^th, 2021 at 2:24pm Lisa Jones wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 8:01pm: Your ignorance is your bliss then. (testing post appearance).
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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #204 - Nov 28^th, 2021 at 10:55pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Nov 27^th, 2021 at 1:26pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 26^th, 2021 at 2:38pm:

But didn't live to see Western capitalist welfare states that surpassed even his wilder dreams without actually turning socialist. How good is that?!?!

You mean in the golden days of capitalism soon after WW2 c.1950 -1970?

But since neoliberalism with its 'small government/ privatization agenda usurped the funding of Keynesian welfare states (from the 1970's on), full employment and secure jobs for all have increasingly retreated, so that Sydney's rail subway stations at night now resemble ME refugee camps. "Welfare" indeed....

Solution?

Deport them back to China, India, Nepal, Vietnam etc.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #205 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 7:48pm

Media propaganda by the left is ridiculous:

A small but vocal alliance of left-leaning students at Arizona State University (ASU) is demanding Kyle Rittenhouse be removed from online classes.
...
Nonetheless, members of groups called Students for Socialism ASU, Students for Justice in Palestine, the Multicultural Solidarity Coalition and Mecha de ASU want university officials to “withdraw” Rittenhouse from class and ban him from campus.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/29/kyle-rittenhouse-arizona-statue-
university-classes

Everyone else is extreme far right, white supremacist - they are merely ' left-leaning.

Bbwianesque, gweggy-worthy dishonesty.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Dnarever

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Re: Socialism
Reply #206 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 7:53pm

Frank wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Media propaganda by the left is ridiculous:

A small but vocal alliance of left-leaning students at Arizona State University (ASU) is demanding Kyle Rittenhouse be removed from online classes.
...
Nonetheless, members of groups called Students for Socialism ASU, Students for Justice in Palestine, the Multicultural Solidarity Coalition and Mecha de ASU want university officials to “withdraw” Rittenhouse from class and ban him from campus.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/29/kyle-rittenhouse-arizona-statue-
university-classes

Everyone else is extreme far right, white supremacist - they are merely ' left-leaning.

Bbwianesque, gweggy-worthy dishonesty.

Quote:

Everyone else is extreme far right, white supremacist - they are merely ' left-leaning.

Yes there is no left in the US, Left leaning from the centre right is called socialist over there.

On the other hand people who are to the right of a long long way right would be reasonably considered to be extreme right.

People do not want to attend classes with someone they consider to be a murderer - not particularly surprising.

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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 47695 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #207 - Nov 30^th, 2021 at 7:59pm It's that Manchester Guardian, duckbrain.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: Socialism
Reply #208 - Dec 1^st, 2021 at 6:52am

Frank wrote on Nov 30^th, 2021 at 7:48pm:

Media propaganda by the left is ridiculous:

A small but vocal alliance of left-leaning students at Arizona State University (ASU) is demanding Kyle Rittenhouse be removed from online classes.
...
Nonetheless, members of groups called Students for Socialism ASU, Students for Justice in Palestine, the Multicultural Solidarity Coalition and Mecha de ASU want university officials to “withdraw” Rittenhouse from class and ban him from campus.

https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/29/kyle-rittenhouse-arizona-statue-
university-classes

Everyone else is extreme far right, white supremacist - they are merely ' left-leaning.

Bbwianesque, gweggy-worthy dishonesty.

These idiots are busy sitting around demanding someone be withdrawn from an online course?

More homework is the answer.

Lots more homework.

They (clearly) have way too much time on their hands.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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thegreatdivide Gold Member Offline Australian Politics<br /> Posts: 13126 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #209 - Dec 1^st, 2021 at 1:21pm Frank wrote on Nov 28^th, 2021 at 10:55pm: Deport them back to China, India, Nepal, Vietnam etc. But many of those people are white Australians....
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