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Dnarever

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Re: Socialism
Reply #60 - Nov 7^th, 2021 at 10:54am

Frank wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 10:08am:

freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2021 at 10:06am:

Frank wrote on Nov 6^th, 2021 at 4:35pm:

Third, everywhere the proletariat develops in step with the bourgeoisie. In proportion, as the
bourgeoisie grows in wealth, the proletariat grows in numbers. For, since the proletarians can be
employed only by capital, and since capital extends only through employing labor, it follows that
the growth of the proletariat proceeds at precisely the same pace as the growth of capital.

Simultaneously, this process draws members of the bourgeoisie and proletarians together into the
great cities where industry can be carried on most profitably, and by thus throwing great masses
in one spot it gives to the proletarians a consciousness of their own strength.

Moreover, the further this process advances, the more new labor-saving machines are invented,
the greater is the pressure exercised by big industry on wages, which, as we have seen, sink to
their minimum and therewith render the condition of the proletariat increasingly unbearable. The
growing dissatisfaction of the proletariat thus joins with its rising power to prepare a proletarian
social revolution.

Who are you quoting now? The first paragraph sounds very Malthusian.

Cheeses, fd. Tsk, tsk Roll Eyes

Take a wild guess.

You asked me to quote Marx. You still haven't located the Communist Manifesto, have you?

Here is a good Marx quote ?

Quote:

One morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got into my pajamas I'll never know.

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AiA

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Re: Socialism
Reply #61 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 12:49am

When Republicans blather about socialism, they are not talking about actual socialism, which is an economic system in which the means of production, that is, the factories and industries, are owned by the people (which really means they are owned by the government).

True socialism has never been popular in America, and really no one is talking about it in the USA today.

Regulation of business and the building of infrastructure is not socialism.

Look at what Abraham Lincoln said:

“legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves---in their separate, and individual capacities.” Those things included, he wrote, “public roads and highways, public schools, charities, pauperism, orphanage, estates of the deceased, and the machinery of government itself.”

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“Jerry, just remember: It’s not a lie … if you believe it.” George Costanza

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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #62 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 8:33am

AiA wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 12:49am:

When Republicans blather about socialism, they are not talking about actual socialism, which is an economic system in which the means of production, that is, the factories and industries, are owned by the people (which really means they are owned by the government).

True socialism has never been popular in America, and really no one is talking about it in the USA today.

Regulation of business and the building of infrastructure is not socialism.

Look at what Abraham Lincoln said:

“legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves---in their separate, and individual capacities.” Those things included, he wrote, “public roads and highways, public schools, charities, pauperism, orphanage, estates of the deceased, and the machinery of government itself.”

What is 'true socialism and where has it been popular?

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« Last Edit: Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:44am by Frank »

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Socialism
Reply #63 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:35am

Socialism varies from nation to nation and the combination with other factors is different for each one.

It's not just a single cut and dried approach to governance.... every culture has a different approach to life and thus a different approach to the way it organises its society... you simply cannot discuss socialism as a single all-encompassing entity.

The US has a different mix of socialism/capitalism from the UK or Australia or Nu Zulland or Thailand or China...

So what we are discussing here is a form of... for want of a better term and in small letters not capitals - national socialism as applies to every individual nation.

Which one do you wish to hang today??

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #64 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 10:06am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:35am:

Socialism varies from nation to nation and the combination with other factors is different for each one.

It's not just a single cut and dried approach to governance.... every culture has a different approach to life and thus a different approach to the way it organises its society... you simply cannot discuss socialism as a single all-encompassing entity.

The US has a different mix of socialism/capitalism from the UK or Australia or Nu Zulland or Thailand or China...

So what we are discussing here is a form of... for want of a better term and in small letters not capitals - national socialism as applies to every individual nation.

Which one do you wish to hang today??

By that reckoning capitalism varies from place to place as well and every country is a mix of socialialism and capitalism. The question is what makes socialism socialism and what would it look like if the capitalist bit was eliminated and just socialism would be left?

It would be like the Soviet Union and its satellites in the 1950s and 60s, as North Korea now - a system that is evidently a failure because it cannot move on from its inhumanity, it can only dissolve in failure.

The unmatchable advantage democracy has over socialism is its ability to self- correction, economically as well as socially.

In other words it's not a pseudo-scientific 19th century fantasy by two graphomaniac German gits, one kept by the other, boasting of having discovered THE animating firce of all history, historical materialism, and armed with this discovery, built the castle in the sky they called 'scientific socialism' to which their followers sent more murdered people than probably all other ideologiesm managed to kill for their truth, combined.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49368 At my desk.	Re: Socialism Reply #65 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139082 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #66 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:47pm "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."
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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #67 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:59pm

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.

Of course it means just that. Unless you are humpty dumoty and you choose what a word means.

Social security, medicare, age care, progressive taxation are not socialism. Socialism has some necessary atributes and these are not them.

I am talking about 'scientific socialism' the stuff of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim etc - starting with socialising production, capital, resources, labour, dispensing with regular elections where the socialisation of the economy could be genuinely reversed, thought control, restriction of intellectual liberty etc.

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Frank Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 47518 Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #68 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 8:04pm greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:47pm: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." No club would ever want you near them.
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Dnarever Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 59082 Here Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #69 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:05pm Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 8:04pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:47pm: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." No club would ever want you near them. "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read".
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Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #70 - Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:17pm

Dnarever wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 9:05pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 8:04pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:47pm:

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

No club would ever want you near them.

"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read".

You cannotta foola me - there isa no sanity clause.

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Grappler Deep State Feller

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Re: Socialism
Reply #71 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 12:09am

Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.

Of course it means just that. Unless you are humpty dumoty and you choose what a word means.

Social security, medicare, age care, progressive taxation are not socialism. Socialism has some necessary atributes and these are not them.

I am talking about 'scientific socialism' the stuff of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim etc - starting with socialising production, capital, resources, labour, dispensing with regular elections where the socialisation of the economy could be genuinely reversed, thought control, restriction of intellectual liberty etc.

Ah - well I don't have time for that sh1t - I'll leave it to the experts.... use defining terms... remember when I discuss Muslim things - I differentiate between Islam and Islamism.. as an example.. for women's things it is Women and feminism, two separate groups.....

So when you say Socialism and socialism - it is difficult for people to be on the same page - same as any discussion of national socialism as opposed to National Socialism... sure to bring a bite out of the unwashed....

First Define Your Terms..... then we'll talk.............

What is YOUR correct title for Extreme Socialism? Fasco-Socialism? Doesn't quite hack it....

You need a new term since the worn-out Communism doesn't do it any more, either...

I like Socio-Fascism myself..... same thing, different sheep skin.... Cool

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Ajax Gold Member Offline CO2 has never controlled temperature on Earth Posts: 10982 Australia Gender:	Re: Socialism Reply #72 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 7:19am Communism and Neo-liberal capitalism are two sides to the same coin. Those that are polarised to either one are the sheeple. If we are to become children of the universe and not just the Earth then we need a new coin.
Back to top	1. There has never been a more serious assault on our standard of living than Anthropogenic Global Warming..Ajax 2. "One hour of freedom is worth more than 40 years of slavery & prison" Regas Feraeos IP Logged

Frank

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Re: Socialism
Reply #73 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:54am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 12:09am:

Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.

Of course it means just that. Unless you are humpty dumoty and you choose what a word means.

Social security, medicare, age care, progressive taxation are not socialism. Socialism has some necessary atributes and these are not them.

I am talking about 'scientific socialism' the stuff of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim etc - starting with socialising production, capital, resources, labour, dispensing with regular elections where the socialisation of the economy could be genuinely reversed, thought control, restriction of intellectual liberty etc.

Ah - well I don't have time for that sh1t - I'll leave it to the experts.... use defining terms... remember when I discuss Muslim things - I differentiate between Islam and Islamism.. as an example.. for women's things it is Women and feminism, two separate groups.....

So when you say Socialism and socialism - it is difficult for people to be on the same page - same as any discussion of national socialism as opposed to National Socialism... sure to bring a bite out of the unwashed....

First Define Your Terms..... then we'll talk.............

What is YOUR correct title for Extreme Socialism? Fasco-Socialism? Doesn't quite hack it....

You need a new term since the worn-out Communism doesn't do it any more, either...

I like Socio-Fascism myself..... same thing, different sheep skin.... Cool

This is the Humpty Dumpty argument: words mean what you want them to mean. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

You are choosing, mixing and matching, so whetever argument is presented you can easily say, 'define socialism' and when it is defined, you say, "oh, but that's not what it means to ME!"
And then you toss in a word salad of undefined and confused ideas just to keep it all as multi-headed and ever-changing so you never have to clarify what you mean and think because you know one thing for sure, that you are grappling with a lot of contradictory and vague ideas. Your idea of socialism seems to boil down to 'nice' and capitalism as 'nasty'.

Here is the ACTUAL meaning of socialism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

https://www.britannica.com/topic/socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp

https://www.thoughtco.com/a-definition-of-socialism-3303637

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freediver

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Re: Socialism
Reply #74 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 6:02pm

Frank wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:54am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 12:09am:

Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.

Of course it means just that. Unless you are humpty dumoty and you choose what a word means.

Social security, medicare, age care, progressive taxation are not socialism. Socialism has some necessary atributes and these are not them.

I am talking about 'scientific socialism' the stuff of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim etc - starting with socialising production, capital, resources, labour, dispensing with regular elections where the socialisation of the economy could be genuinely reversed, thought control, restriction of intellectual liberty etc.

Ah - well I don't have time for that sh1t - I'll leave it to the experts.... use defining terms... remember when I discuss Muslim things - I differentiate between Islam and Islamism.. as an example.. for women's things it is Women and feminism, two separate groups.....

So when you say Socialism and socialism - it is difficult for people to be on the same page - same as any discussion of national socialism as opposed to National Socialism... sure to bring a bite out of the unwashed....

First Define Your Terms..... then we'll talk.............

What is YOUR correct title for Extreme Socialism? Fasco-Socialism? Doesn't quite hack it....

You need a new term since the worn-out Communism doesn't do it any more, either...

I like Socio-Fascism myself..... same thing, different sheep skin.... Cool

This is the Humpty Dumpty argument: words mean what you want them to mean. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

You are choosing, mixing and matching, so whetever argument is presented you can easily say, 'define socialism' and when it is defined, you say, "oh, but that's not what it means to ME!"
And then you toss in a word salad of undefined and confused ideas just to keep it all as multi-headed and ever-changing so you never have to clarify what you mean and think because you know one thing for sure, that you are grappling with a lot of contradictory and vague ideas. Your idea of socialism seems to boil down to 'nice' and capitalism as 'nasty'.

Here is the ACTUAL meaning of socialism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

https://www.britannica.com/topic/socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp

https://www.thoughtco.com/a-definition-of-socialism-3303637

I agree with Grappler. You often see people go round in circles for pages because they are using the same words but speaking different languages. He is not choosing. He is asking you to be specific so he doesn't have to guess.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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