Australian Politics Forum

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47525
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #75 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 6:16pm

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 6:02pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:54am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 12:09am:

Frank wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 7:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 8^th, 2021 at 6:54pm:

What grappler means is that real economic systems are on a spectrum from true socialism to laissez faire capitalism. This doesn't mean that the definition of socialism changes every time the context does.

Of course it means just that. Unless you are humpty dumoty and you choose what a word means.

Social security, medicare, age care, progressive taxation are not socialism. Socialism has some necessary attributes and these are not them.

I am talking about 'scientific socialism' the stuff of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Kim etc - starting with socialising production, capital, resources, labour, dispensing with regular elections where the socialisation of the economy could be genuinely reversed, thought control, restriction of intellectual liberty etc.

Ah - well I don't have time for that sh1t - I'll leave it to the experts.... use defining terms... remember when I discuss Muslim things - I differentiate between Islam and Islamism.. as an example.. for women's things it is Women and feminism, two separate groups.....

So when you say Socialism and socialism - it is difficult for people to be on the same page - same as any discussion of national socialism as opposed to National Socialism... sure to bring a bite out of the unwashed....

First Define Your Terms..... then we'll talk.............

What is YOUR correct title for Extreme Socialism? Fasco-Socialism? Doesn't quite hack it....

You need a new term since the worn-out Communism doesn't do it any more, either...

I like Socio-Fascism myself..... same thing, different sheep skin.... Cool

This is the Humpty Dumpty argument: words mean what you want them to mean. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

You are choosing, mixing and matching, so whetever argument is presented you can easily say, 'define socialism' and when it is defined, you say, "oh, but that's not what it means to ME!"
And then you toss in a word salad of undefined and confused ideas just to keep it all as multi-headed and ever-changing so you never have to clarify what you mean and think because you know one thing for sure, that you are grappling with a lot of contradictory and vague ideas. Your idea of socialism seems to boil down to 'nice' and capitalism as 'nasty'.

Here is the ACTUAL meaning of socialism:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto

https://www.britannica.com/topic/socialism

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/socialism.asp

https://www.thoughtco.com/a-definition-of-socialism-3303637

I agree with Grappler. You often see people go round in circles for pages because they are using the same words but speaking different languages. He is not choosing. He is asking you to be specific so he doesn't have to guess.

I have been specific - I always talked about Marxist 'scientific socialism', supporting my points with quotes and links from authoritative sources. Never seen any alternative links, definitions, articulations, sources from either of you.
So I am not surprised that the two of you agree.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49368 At my desk.	Re: Socialism Reply #76 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:56pm You don't appear to have disagreed with anything Grapps actually said. I expect all three of us are in agreement, if only you could get over your apparent fear of what he will do with it.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #77 - Nov 10^th, 2021 at 10:59pm

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:56pm:

You don't appear to have disagreed with anything Grapps actually said. I expect all three of us are in agreement, if only you could get over your apparent fear of what he will do with it.

Free My People!! Pharoah - Let My People GO!

And as for word salad - I speak English and always say what I mean... Socialism is as varied as the groups that choose to use it - from the United States all the way to.. well .. North Korea.... so what is needed is careful delineation of each different strand... sort of like a multiple Hydra-headed Corona virus... but without necessarily being virulent in all of its strands.....

Hardly my fault that some cannot follow English - I am used to speaking with professors and such, and they always know what I say, and disagree if they choose... to me what I say is just common everyday language - but it stupifies some.....

Had that problem with Gandalf today - he cannot see the see the forest of disrupting the flimsy protections provided by Law for the trees in his eyes from advocating feminist emotion-driven ideas.... steeped in the latter, he knoweth not the difference ....

Hope he's a Labor schill - might work its way back to the Party, that defeat he suffered today with the rhetoric of the current lot... maybe they will learn that their ideas do not always float well in public, as opposed to in the echo chamber of the party room...

Welcome to Grappler Free University - no charge for education - we leap tall buildings of multiple issues at a single bound....

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 10^th, 2021 at 11:08pm by Grappler Deep State Feller »

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47525
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #78 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:27am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 10:59pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 10^th, 2021 at 8:56pm:

You don't appear to have disagreed with anything Grapps actually said. I expect all three of us are in agreement, if only you could get over your apparent fear of what he will do with it.

Free My People!! Pharoah - Let My People GO!

And as for word salad - I speak English and always say what I mean... Socialism is as varied as the groups that choose to use it - from the United States all the way to.. well .. North Korea.... so what is needed is careful delineation of each different strand... sort of like a multiple Hydra-headed Corona virus... but without necessarily being virulent in all of its strands.....

Hardly my fault that some cannot follow English - I am used to speaking with professors and such, and they always know what I say, and disagree if they choose... to me what I say is just common everyday language - but it stupifies some.....

Had that problem with Gandalf today - he cannot see the see the forest of disrupting the flimsy protections provided by Law for the trees in his eyes from advocating feminist emotion-driven ideas.... steeped in the latter, he knoweth not the difference ....

Hope he's a Labor schill - might work its way back to the Party, that defeat he suffered today with the rhetoric of the current lot... maybe they will learn that their ideas do not always float well in public, as opposed to in the echo chamber of the party room...

Welcome to Grappler Free University - no charge for education - we leap tall buildings of multiple issues at a single bound....

Well, carefully delineate, then. Go on. I have clearly delineated what I mean and what socialism means.
You an fd are still on the amorphous, 'it's like anything' word salad level, calling everything that has some social or societal angle 'socialism'.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #79 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #80 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:02am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component.

Had a capitalist component.

Deng Xiaoping's great experiment is rapidly being wound back.

Up to something like 10% of the highest ranking among the cartel have been expelled for practising and profiting from Deng and Zheng eras capitalism that had (according to the Xi faction of the cartel) descended into blatant fraud and corruption.

Of course, the truth will be more prosaic, in that the Xi faction is merely reeling in the fish they were happy to let swim in that polluted cartel pond, until it came time to seize absolute power by destroying competing cartel factions.

Orwell had a lot to say on the murderously fractious nature of the Spanish socialists' cartel when they were fighting Franco's fascists... They couldn't help but turn on each other in the middle of an ideology-driven civil war.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47525
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #81 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:52am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

And what is fascism, then? Capitalism? Extreme?

Just adding more vague, undefined notions to the salad.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:06pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #82 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:19pm

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:52am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

And what is fascism, then? Capitalism?
Extreme?

Just adding more vague, undefined notions to the salad.

Just trying to establish common terms we can all use on the same page.... only suggestions.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #83 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:22pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:02am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component.

Had a capitalist component.

Deng Xiaoping's great experiment is rapidly being wound back.

Up to something like 10% of the highest ranking among the cartel have been expelled for practising and profiting from Deng and Zheng eras capitalism that had (according to the Xi faction of the cartel) descended into blatant fraud and corruption.

Of course, the truth will be more prosaic, in that the Xi faction is merely reeling in the fish they were happy to let swim in that polluted cartel pond, until it came time to seize absolute power by destroying competing cartel factions.

Orwell had a lot to say on the murderously fractious nature of the Spanish socialists' cartel when they were fighting Franco's fascists... They couldn't help but turn on each other in the middle of an ideology-driven civil war.

Ah the old decadent profiteer Imperialist running dogs... The New Cultural Revolution that will restore to the Revolution its fundamental values and return the People's Republic to its real drives and purposes in life...

During the Cultural Revolution, the Gang of Four and other Ultra-Leftists listed nine categories of political-social undesirables; intellectuals were at the bottom of the list and were called the 'stinking Number Nine'. The Line-up of the undesirables was:- landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, moral degenerates, rightists, renegades, enemy agents, capitalist roaders, intellectuals.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #84 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 3:56pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:02am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component.

Had a capitalist component.

Deng Xiaoping's great experiment is rapidly being wound back.

Up to something like 10% of the highest ranking among the cartel have been expelled for practising and profiting from Deng and Zheng eras capitalism that had (according to the Xi faction of the cartel) descended into blatant fraud and corruption.

Of course, the truth will be more prosaic, in that the Xi faction is merely reeling in the fish they were happy to let swim in that polluted cartel pond, until it came time to seize absolute power by destroying competing cartel factions.

Orwell had a lot to say on the murderously fractious nature of the Spanish socialists' cartel when they were fighting Franco's fascists... They couldn't help but turn on each other in the middle of an ideology-driven civil war.

Ah the old decadent profiteer Imperialist running dogs... The New Cultural Revolution that will restore to the Revolution its fundamental values and return the People's Republic to its real drives and purposes in life...

During the Cultural Revolution, the Gang of Four and other Ultra-Leftists listed nine categories of political-social undesirables; intellectuals were at the bottom of the list and were called the 'stinking Number Nine'. The Line-up of the undesirables was:- landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, moral degenerates, rightists, renegades, enemy agents, capitalist roaders, intellectuals.

At the core of all communist revolutions, after the facade of social justice has crumbled, lie the worms of resentment and revenge towards the affluent and intelligent.

Communists do not love the poor... They hate the rich.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #85 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:08pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 3:56pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:22pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:02am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component.

Had a capitalist component.

Deng Xiaoping's great experiment is rapidly being wound back.

Up to something like 10% of the highest ranking among the cartel have been expelled for practising and profiting from Deng and Zheng eras capitalism that had (according to the Xi faction of the cartel) descended into blatant fraud and corruption.

Of course, the truth will be more prosaic, in that the Xi faction is merely reeling in the fish they were happy to let swim in that polluted cartel pond, until it came time to seize absolute power by destroying competing cartel factions.

Orwell had a lot to say on the murderously fractious nature of the Spanish socialists' cartel when they were fighting Franco's fascists... They couldn't help but turn on each other in the middle of an ideology-driven civil war.

Ah the old decadent profiteer Imperialist running dogs... The New Cultural Revolution that will restore to the Revolution its fundamental values and return the People's Republic to its real drives and purposes in life...

During the Cultural Revolution, the Gang of Four and other Ultra-Leftists listed nine categories of political-social undesirables; intellectuals were at the bottom of the list and were called the 'stinking Number Nine'. The Line-up of the undesirables was:- landlords, rich peasants, counter-revolutionaries, moral degenerates, rightists, renegades, enemy agents, capitalist roaders, intellectuals.

At the core of all communist revolutions, after the facade of social justice has crumbled, lie the worms of resentment and revenge towards the affluent and intelligent.

Communists do not love the poor... They hate the rich.

Looking at that list you do see envy and malice and resentment and distrust of intellectuals etc... all based on feelings...

Just reading "A Short History of Stupid"... interesting but flawed, I think. Xitler, of course, is using the excuse of capitalist roading to get rid of any potential opposition.... who will be next on the list?

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47525
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #86 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:19pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:52am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

And what is fascism, then? Capitalism?
Extreme?

Just adding more vague, undefined notions to the salad.

Just trying to establish common terms we can all use on the same page.... only suggestions.

Tossing in more and more undefined terms is establishing nothing other than your confusion which we are not going to have in common.

"Socialism is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism". Shocked

Absolute socialism - what is that?? Socio-capitalism?? Despotic socialist state ( as if there was any other kind)?? Sounds like ideas you invented and only you know (??) the meaning of.

Back to top

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #87 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:26pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Just reading "A Short History of Stupid"... interesting but flawed, I think. Xitler, of course, is using the excuse of capitalist roading to get rid of any potential opposition.... who will be next on the list?

Yes... I believe the Xi faction of the cartel is making the grab for ultimate power that rivals or exceeds that amassed by Mao, himself.

Although, fraud and corruption are not restricted to the non-Xi faction of the cartel. The entire cartel is corrupt and irreformable.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Grappler Deep State Feller

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 85138
Always was always will be HOME
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #88 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 5:56pm

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:19pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:52am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

And what is fascism, then? Capitalism?
Extreme?

Just adding more vague, undefined notions to the salad.

Just trying to establish common terms we can all use on the same page.... only suggestions.

Tossing in more and more undefined terms is establishing nothing other than your confusion which we are not going to have in common.

"Socialism is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism". Shocked

Absolute socialism - what is that?? Socio-capitalism?? Despotic socialist state ( as if there was any other kind)?? Sounds like ideas you invented and only you know (??) the meaning of.

That's where YOU are confused.. Sweden and a few other countries are 'socialist - nobody would call them despotic states. Like many here on other issues, you seek blacks and whites where there are none... all the cats are grey, I'm afraid.

So I'll say again.... what is needed is a group of terms that define the various combined values of capitalist/socialist states, from Ultra-Socialist to Ultra-Capitalist.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Frank

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 47525
Gender: male

Re: Socialism
Reply #89 - Nov 11^th, 2021 at 7:50pm

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 5:56pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 4:19pm:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 2:19pm:

Frank wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 10:52am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Nov 11^th, 2021 at 9:54am:

Socialism as we know it is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism - even China while being ostensibly communist, has a massive capitalist component. Even North Korea, held up as the example of a despotic socialist state, is actually a cartel-run socio-capitalist nation that uses capitalist enterprise to further itself when it feels it suits.

What is needed here, as I suggested a long time ago in this discussion, is a term that adequately describes Extreme Socialism, so that the discussion could be freed up. Communism as a term has lost its balls... doesn't have the bite it once did ..... we need a new one.

If we can start there, we can all be on the same page.

I dunno..... extreme socialist nations are essentially Fascist in action.... controlled by a (self-appointed) elite for essentially their benefit... Fascialism?

And what is fascism, then? Capitalism?
Extreme?

Just adding more vague, undefined notions to the salad.

Just trying to establish common terms we can all use on the same page.... only suggestions.

Tossing in more and more undefined terms is establishing nothing other than your confusion which we are not going to have in common.

"Socialism is a mix of capitalism and absolute socialism". Shocked

Absolute socialism - what is that?? Socio-capitalism?? Despotic socialist state ( as if there was any other kind)?? Sounds like ideas you invented and only you know (??) the meaning of.

That's where YOU are confused.. Sweden and a few other countries are 'socialist - nobody would call them despotic states.

Sweden, Denmark, Norway are - ready? are you sitting down? - constitutional monarchies. As are The Netherlands, Belgium, UK. None of them are socialist countries.

You are confusing social welfare, social democratic parties, social safety net etc with socialism.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 11^th, 2021 at 7:58pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

IP Logged