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A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia (Read 11402 times)
Valkie
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #90 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 1:52pm
 
I know, from personal experience what overtaxing does.

Every bonus i got for my hard work was taxed at the highest rate.
What this meant for me was a $10,000.00 bonus became a smidgen over $5,000.00 with no benefit to me at all.

It became a truely sore point to hand over half of my bonus for hard work to a parasitical grubberment, who then threw it at even bigger parasites who sat on their arses and did sweet FA every day.

Oh i tried to fiddle it, taking other benifits or non-monitary things like free trips and car upgrades.
But the slimy grubberment and public servants gradually ground down even that, deeming it as taxable.

Every pay rise was also taxed at the highest rate.
Meaning that i was again paying more and more tax, for no real benifit.
Even pumping as much as i could into super ( with a lower tax rate) was limited.
Just another way to screw me.
And my profits on investments were taxed, you guessed it, at the highest rate.
Every cent was checked and re-checked by the slimy grubberment.
Every deduction questioned.
I have been investigated several times, once receiving a letter from the tax thieves stating that i had been checked and had paid what was due.
I didnt even know i was being checked.

Cant get me now.
Living off my super means no more tax returns.
My accountant watches for anything, but assures me im good.
My investments return just enough to be under the radar.

When the term TAX THE RICH is rolled out.
What it really means is TAX THE POOR SOD EARNING A BIT MORE THAN THE AVERAGE.
Big players, multinationals, big business, politicians and senior public servants all have nice little schemes to avoid tax, some even get money back.
But those on a professional wage or contract suffer the most.
No wonder most professionals leave Australia for elsewhere. 
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thegreatdivide
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #91 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 1:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 1:26pm:
Exactly what I suggested would happen:

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/

While most decent people would support policies to address rising inequality and support those worst hit by the pandemic, history suggests introducing a wealth tax is unlikely to be the best way to do it. As Mr Healey concluded, there is a little evidence that, all things considered, it can be sufficiently lucrative.

Back in 1990, around a dozen European countries had a wealth tax, but most have been abolished

In 1982, Francois Mitterand, the first left-wing president of France’s Fifth Republic, introduced a wealth tax that was swiftly abolished by Jacques Chirac in 1986, but reinstated two years later when Mr Mitterand was voted back in. The tax – called the ISF (impôt sur la fortune) – stayed in place until 2017 when it was abolished by current president Emmanuel Macron.

The rate was charged on individuals with a net worth over €1.3m (£1.14m), with the rate ranging from 0.5 per cent to 1.5 per cent (on assets over €10m). While it might have helped social solidarity in France, the revenue it raised was paltry. In 2015, a total of 343,000 households paid €5.22bn, an average of about €15,200 per household, according to the Financial Times. It accounted for less than 2 per cent of France’s tax receipts.

What’s more, it led to an exodus of France’s richest. More than 12,000 millionaires left France in 2016, according to research group New World Wealth. In total, they say the country experienced a net outflow of more than 60,000 millionaires between 2000 and 2016. When these people left, France lost not only the revenue generated from the wealth tax, but all the others too, including income tax and VAT.

French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. In a paper published in 2008, he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year. What's more ISF fraud mainly involving an underassessment of property assets was estimated at around 28 per cent of total revenues.

Most wealth taxes have failed to bring in much revenue and ultimately proved politically unsustainable. Higher taxes and the flight of a cohort of France’s richest will have helped to reduce inequality, which is lower than in the UK, according to the Gini coefficient. But it is hard to see that it left the country better off.


Yet simple confiscation of 99% of only the 10 wealthiest  billionaires' pandemic-related gains would yield $5 trillion....and they would still be $8 billion better off than before the pandemic.

Global mobility of capital - and tax havens -  are a problem. 

Meanwhile, you claim Gittins doesn't know what he is talking about, and that governments must tax or borrow from greedy financiers, as if this is written down on a tablet from God.....all the time telling us why taxation (on the rich)  is a bad thing.

You still haven't explained how everyone can participate in the economy at above-poverty level, given the massive mis-allocation of resources enabling the world's wealthiest 10 men  to double their claims on the world's resources, even while asleep, at the same time as poverty is killing people at the rate of 1 every 4 seconds.    

The guillotine is waiting.....




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freediver
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #92 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 2:00pm
 
Quote:
Yet simple confiscation of 99% of only the 10 wealthiest  billionaires' pandemic-related gains would yield $5 trillion....and they would still be $8 billion better off than before the pandemic.


Simple eh? Which countries would we have to invade to do that? Or did you not intend this as anything more than a fantasy?

Quote:
Meanwhile, you claim Gittins doesn't know what he is talking about


I claim that it is bleeding obvious to anyone who understands economics, based on what he said.
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thegreatdivide
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #93 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 2:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 2:00pm:
Simple eh? Which countries would we have to invade to do that? Or did you not intend this as anything more than a fantasy?


Right, so there goes the tax option...so Musk can continue selling joyrides in space to millionaires, while poverty remains entrenched even in rich countries 

Quote:
I claim that it is bleeding obvious to anyone who understands economics, based on what he said.


Your understanding of economics is the same as Louis XVI's conservative economists (rather than his progressive economists, whose tax policies would have saved the Monarchy).....and you still haven't offered an alternative to taxation.

The guillotine is waiting....
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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #94 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 2:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 1:26pm:
Exactly what I suggested would happen:

https://www.investorschronicle.co.uk/education/2021/02/11/lessons-from-history-france-s-wealth-tax-did-more-harm-than-good/

While most decent people would support policies to address rising inequality and support those worst hit by the pandemic, history suggests introducing a wealth tax is unlikely to be the best way to do it. As Mr Healey concluded, there is a little evidence that, all things considered, it can be sufficiently lucrative.

Back in 1990, around a dozen European countries had a wealth tax, but most have been abolished

In 1982, Francois Mitterand, the first left-wing president of France’s Fifth Republic, introduced a wealth tax that was swiftly abolished by Jacques Chirac in 1986, but reinstated two years later when Mr Mitterand was voted back in. The tax – called the ISF (impôt sur la fortune) – stayed in place until 2017 when it was abolished by current president Emmanuel Macron.

The rate was charged on individuals with a net worth over €1.3m (£1.14m), with the rate ranging from 0.5 per cent to 1.5 per cent (on assets over €10m). While it might have helped social solidarity in France, the revenue it raised was paltry. In 2015, a total of 343,000 households paid €5.22bn, an average of about €15,200 per household, according to the Financial Times. It accounted for less than 2 per cent of France’s tax receipts.

What’s more, it led to an exodus of France’s richest. More than 12,000 millionaires left France in 2016, according to research group New World Wealth. In total, they say the country experienced a net outflow of more than 60,000 millionaires between 2000 and 2016. When these people left, France lost not only the revenue generated from the wealth tax, but all the others too, including income tax and VAT.

French economist Eric Pichet estimated that the ISF ended up costing France almost twice as much revenue as it generated. In a paper published in 2008, he concluded that the ISF caused an annual fiscal shortfall of €7bn and had probably reduced gross domestic product (GDP) growth by 0.2 per cent a year. What's more ISF fraud mainly involving an underassessment of property assets was estimated at around 28 per cent of total revenues.

Most wealth taxes have failed to bring in much revenue and ultimately proved politically unsustainable. Higher taxes and the flight of a cohort of France’s richest will have helped to reduce inequality, which is lower than in the UK, according to the Gini coefficient. But it is hard to see that it left the country better off.


Oh? Pichet published his paper on the wealth tax in 2008, dear. You may recall the subsequent global financial crisis and covid outbreaks.

The Gini Coefficient has France at 32.4, the UK at 35.1 - that's less inequality.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gini-coefficient-by-country

Times change. You?
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #95 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 3:12pm
 
Quote:
Your understanding of economics is the same as Louis XVI's conservative economists (rather than his progressive economists, whose tax policies would have saved the Monarchy).....and you still haven't offered an alternative to taxation.


Again, why do you keep asking such idiotic questions? Why should I offer an alternative to taxation? Have I ever said all taxes should be abolished?

Quote:
The Gini Coefficient has France at 32.4, the UK at 35.1 - that's less inequality.


Because people are actually better off, or because 60,000 millionaires left the country, taking all their money, income, and associated government revenue with them? I expect North Korea also has a fantastic Gini coefficient. That does not mean we should follow their lead.
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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #96 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 5:54pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 3:12pm:
Quote:
Your understanding of economics is the same as Louis XVI's conservative economists (rather than his progressive economists, whose tax policies would have saved the Monarchy).....and you still haven't offered an alternative to taxation.


Again, why do you keep asking such idiotic questions? Why should I offer an alternative to taxation? Have I ever said all taxes should be abolished?

Quote:
The Gini Coefficient has France at 32.4, the UK at 35.1 - that's less inequality.


Because people are actually better off, or because 60,000 millionaires left the country, taking all their money, income, and associated government revenue with them? I expect North Korea also has a fantastic Gini coefficient. That does not mean we should follow their lead.


Is that a question?
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #97 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 5:58pm
 
You think that a low Gini coefficient is a good thing, because you equate it with equality. But I'm pretty sure you will find a low Gini coefficient is strongly correlated with oppression. That's because fundamentally, if people are given the choice, they choose self determination, not equality.

You assume that France's low coefficient is good for the French people, but like communism, the wealth tax actually made them worse off, and slightly more equal in the process.

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Frank
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #98 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:02pm
 
Karnal wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 12:58pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 9:10am:
On universal wage regardless of ability, contribution, assetts, wealth etc - this would fundamentally chande social relations,  creating an underclass from which nothing is expected. In essence it would create a class of people, a caste similar to the untouchables or the pre-emancipation negros, a second or third order lumpen prole class.
As with legalised drugs, the number of 'users' of the universal wage as their permanent sole source of money (plus petty crime) and permenant relationship tie to the rest of society would grow relentlessly.  The whole idea of thriving, initiative, effort, excellence, giving it a go, trying again, failing beter, getting up and keeping going - and all the psychological, social, economic, emotional furniture that comes with such age old values would be radically changed in unforeseen but invariably distopian, degenerate ways.

Life is not JUST about money.


That's just ideology. Universal basic income needs to be tested and measured to know.

Life IS not just about money. People put in effort and initiative for all sorts of reasons. Cash profits are only one, but a basic income doesn't stop anybody chasing more cash.

Most families provide their kids with basic incomes or sustenance once they reach working age - even more so for the rich. This doesn't stop kids getting jobs, setting up businesses or investing their wealth.

A universal basic income is the only way to truly level the playing field in a capitalist economy, as every cashed-up schoolboy knows.



"That's just ideology"  - one Bbwianesque great divide ideologue is enough. That's just ideology - that's a stupid ideological yeah-but, paki.

You start by saying it needs to be measured and tested - and end by asserting that is the only way, and never mind the measuring and testing. That IS blinkered, stupid ideology.

Anyway, my main point is not about money but about constituting a permanent underclass of whom nothing is expected by the rest of society. Institutionalised drongo class.
Temporary help converted to permanent sit down money, no questions asked. Society-wide remote Abo life.



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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #99 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 5:58pm:
You think that a low Gini coefficient is a good thing, because you equate it with equality. But I'm pretty sure you will find a low Gini coefficient is strongly correlated with oppression. That's because fundamentally, if people are given the choice, they choose self determination, not equality.

You assume that France's low coefficient is good for the French people, but like communism, the wealth tax actually made them worse off, and slightly more equal in the process.



I most certainly do not. Afghanistan has the lowest Gini coefficient.

France and the UK, however, have almost exactly the same GDP per capita and average household income - the UK about $150 a year more - median.

France has better benefits, holidays, and public services than the UK. I certainly know where I'd rather live.

You?
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aquascoot
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #100 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:11pm
 
the wealthy are usually the innovators, go-getters, hard chargers and winners.

the more of them you have the better

if i had a farm of racehorses, i would love to have a Winx.

the rediculous idea that i would tax Winx (make her give up her food to some scrubby brumby that will produce, for me, no income, nothing, zero, zilch) is verging on the insane.

in fact, we should find the successful and give them MORE resources bacaue they will use it well.

giving it to chodes will see it wasted on tattooes and mag wheels
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #101 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:12pm
 
Quote:
I most certainly do not.


So why did you pretend a lower Gini coefficient means something good?

Quote:
France has better benefits, holidays, and public services than the UK. I certainly know where I'd rather live.


And it would be an even better place if they had not made the mistake, twice in the last two decades, of implementing a wealth tax. Unless of course you are one of those people who think the mere presence of people who are wealthier than you is a bad thing.
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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #102 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:13pm
 
Frank wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:02pm:
Karnal wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 12:58pm:
Frank wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 9:10am:
On universal wage regardless of ability, contribution, assetts, wealth etc - this would fundamentally chande social relations,  creating an underclass from which nothing is expected. In essence it would create a class of people, a caste similar to the untouchables or the pre-emancipation negros, a second or third order lumpen prole class.
As with legalised drugs, the number of 'users' of the universal wage as their permanent sole source of money (plus petty crime) and permenant relationship tie to the rest of society would grow relentlessly.  The whole idea of thriving, initiative, effort, excellence, giving it a go, trying again, failing beter, getting up and keeping going - and all the psychological, social, economic, emotional furniture that comes with such age old values would be radically changed in unforeseen but invariably distopian, degenerate ways.

Life is not JUST about money.


That's just ideology. Universal basic income needs to be tested and measured to know.

Life IS not just about money. People put in effort and initiative for all sorts of reasons. Cash profits are only one, but a basic income doesn't stop anybody chasing more cash.

Most families provide their kids with basic incomes or sustenance once they reach working age - even more so for the rich. This doesn't stop kids getting jobs, setting up businesses or investing their wealth.

A universal basic income is the only way to truly level the playing field in a capitalist economy, as every cashed-up schoolboy knows.



"That's just ideology"  - one Bbwianesque great divide ideologue is enough. That's just ideology - that's a stupid ideological yeah-but, paki.

You start by saying it needs to be measured and tested - and end by asserting that is the only way, and never mind the measuring and testing. That IS blinkered, stupid ideology.

Anyway, my main point is not about money but about constituting a permanent underclass of whom nothing is expected by the rest of society. Institutionalised drongo class.
Temporary help converted to permanent sit down money, no questions asked. Society-wide remote Abo life.



We have that already, dear. We call them dole bludgers. Ask Valkie.

A universal basic income is no more than a negative tax. A subsidy, just for being here, for being human, just for being you.

You? Yes, dear boy, you'd get it too.
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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #103 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:12pm:
Quote:
I most certainly do not.


So why did you pretend a lower Gini coefficient means something good?


Because it was in your article, you silly old thing.

You know, the one from 2008. It had the wrong info.

You?
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Karnal
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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #104 - Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:26pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Jan 23rd, 2022 at 6:11pm:
the wealthy are usually the innovators, go-getters, hard chargers and winners.

the more of them you have the better

if i had a farm of racehorses, i would love to have a Winx.

the rediculous idea that i would tax Winx (make her give up her food to some scrubby brumby that will produce, for me, no income, nothing, zero, zilch) is verging on the insane.

in fact, we should find the successful and give them MORE resources bacaue they will use it well.

giving it to chodes will see it wasted on tattooes and mag wheels


The innovators and go-getters are stuck investing in those those mag wheels, dear. They sell. Where else are they going to put their money?

Oh, there's Netflix, Facebook and Pornhub, but the rich have got just as many choices as the chodes.

Those with capital have the same size dicks, you know, they just have a few more choices where to stick them.

Anyway, your latest stance on big pharma and corporate wealth is rather down on big business, remember?

That was last week, anyway. You might have forgotten.

It's a lady's prerogative to change her mind, no?
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