Australian Politics Forum - A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia

thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #120 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 3:17pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Jan 24^th, 2022 at 7:02am:

Are these the wealthy people you'd like to see a wealth tax aimed at?

Definitely. I'm for reward for effort. But I'm a follower of the new economics aka MMT, not classical economics.

As Stephanie Kelton, author of 'The Deficit Myth' said; "money doesn't grow on rich people".

IOW, a currency-issuing government doesn't need rich people's money, the problem is their outsize influence on the democratic process.

In the meantime, a functional economy must implement above poverty employment for all, which will require intervention in the market economy, AND higher taxes for millionaires as well as billionaires, to pay for said intervention (ie a Job guarantee).

MMT of course eliminates the the need for government to tax or borrow in order to spend, but that's apparently too 'socialist' for the present crop of central bankers still deluded by classical economics.

Fun and games ahead, as pandemic-related poverty increases around the world, and central banks raise interest rates to avoid inflation - exactly the wrong move.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #121 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:01pm

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:48am:

So taxing billionnairs on their assetts would require thdm to sell some of it to get liquid asetts to pay the fax, unless they transferred shares and stocks to the tax office to own by way of tax payment - a daft idea).

Oh.... you are good at perceiving the difficulties of taxing billionaires, so nuttin' can be done....

Quote:

On universal wage regardless of ability, contribution, assetts, wealth etc - this would fundamentally change social relations, creating an underclass from which nothing is expected. In essence it would create a class of people, a caste similar to the untouchables or the pre-emancipation negros, a second or third order lumpen prole class.

Which is why MMT'ers prefer a Job Guarantee....but you of course, deluded by classical economics, fall back to your conservative default position which is ..... 'nuttin can be done' (aka 'there is no alternative', TINA, proclaimed by that economic genius, Margaret Thatcher.

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As with legalised drugs, the number of 'users' of the universal wage as their permanent sole source of money (plus petty crime) and permenant relationship tie to the rest of society would grow relentlessly.

Some would however take the opportunity offered by the UBI and start their own businesses; but yes - the UBI is a cop-out to avoid implementing universal above-poverty participation in the economy.

Quote:

The whole idea of thriving, initiative, effort, excellence, giving it a go, trying again, failing beter, getting up and keeping going - and all the psychological, social, economic, emotional furniture that comes with such age old values would be radically changed in unforeseen but invariably distopian, degenerate ways.

Certainly life on the dole is a a demoralizing dystopian reality.

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Life is not JUST about money.

After you can pay for the basics, eg good housing, good food and utilities.....yes, so true.

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The fatal flaw of the universal basic income is the same one that hampers most existing anti-poverty programs: a lack of emphasis on encouraging work.

More exactly, failure to actually engage people in work.

Quote:

Instead, these programs have sought to provide directly whatever poor people happen to lack.

Any work program is supposed to enable recipients pay for basics.

Quote:

The result has been more than 50 years of massive public outlays, with little benefit other than making recipients dependent on government.

Sometimes you make a correct statement

Quote:

The ongoing rise in worker’s disability claims follows a long string of recent expansions of welfare programs, such as food stamps, housing assistance, and even free phones to boost the standard of living among poor citizens.

Welfare is always a disaster, a stop gap; and admission of a dysfunctional economy which fails to engage everyone according to ability, whether in the private sector, or public sector (which will need to act as employer of last resort, when the private sector cannot employ everyone (which is always the case in practice).

Quote:

In the long run, this transfer-focused approach to welfare does more than create a disincentive to work. In his book The Welfare Trait, British neurobiologist Adam Perkins argues that dependence on welfare creates work-resistant personalities, which are often passed on from one generation to the next. As one review of Perkins’s work puts it, the welfare state “becomes a production line for damaged kids” and encourages parents in unemployed households to have more children than families led by breadwinners.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/against-universal-basic-income-15636.html

All presenting an excellent case for a Job Guarantee., to wit:

https://www.amazon.com.au/Case-Job-Guarantee-Pavlina-Tcherneva/dp/1509542108

"One of the most enduring ideas in economics is that unemployment is both unavoidable and necessary for the smooth functioning of the economy. This assumption has provided cover for the devastating social and economic costs of job insecurity. It is also false.

In this book, leading expert Pavlina R. Tcherneva challenges us to imagine a world where the phantom of unemployment is banished and anyone who seeks decent, living-wage work can find it - guaranteed. This is the aim of the Job Guarantee proposal: to provide a voluntary employment opportunity in public service to anyone who needs it. Tcherneva enumerates the many advantages of the Job Guarantee over the status quo and proposes a blueprint for its implementation within the wider context of the need for a Green New Deal.

This compact primer is the ultimate guide to the benefits of one of the most transformative public policies being discussed today. It is essential reading for all citizens and activists who are passionate about social justice and building a fairer economy".

...but you of course - being a comfortable conservative- will deny the possibility of tax reform, the possibility of implementing universal participation in the economy, and be satisfied with just blaming poverty on its victims; even as poverty is killing 24,000 people a day while billionaires continue to double their wealth in their sleep....

Nice.

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« Last Edit: Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:13pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #122 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:16pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 9:49am:

Look at Terminal Patrick - absolutely withering on the vine they are... can't afford costs of wages to keep going.... they should just sell up and move on then ...................... let someone else take the catastrophic losses... Grin

Gee Grappler, another good post, and a welcome laugh as well...

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #123 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:34pm

Valkie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Its funny how tge ones bleating for more tax from the rich.
Have never worked a day in their lives, living off the taxes paid by working people.

Oxfam? Picketty? Yellen? Sanders?

Quote:

Groggy and his socks are prime examples.
Spend all day on forums whyning and winging about what they dont have.
And fantasizing about what they coukd have if only they could get the rich to pay more tax.

Nonsense. The issue is to stop billionaires increasing their out-sized claims on the earth's resources - even while they are asleep, and guaranteeing above poverty participation for everyone else.

As Frank said in a rare moment of insight, "money isn't everything".

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #124 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:55pm

Quote:

Always plenty of wriggle room in any rules that affect those with the wherewithal... the problem here is big business - small businesses generally are good at keeping their taxes reasonably straight.

Quote:

The problem is mega-businesses not paying anything.... profit margins are so low you have to wonder why they're in business at all if it's so bad....

They are not actually that low. In the end, shareholders want distributions. This is distorted in the media by cherry picking stats. There are some years when most large businesses make a loss or very small profit. For the next few years that stats comparing $1 tax paid for $2000 turnover get passed around and around by the unionists and communists, as though it happens every year.

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We're entering a new stage of capitalism, where the machines are taking over. In some countries, at some point in time, the right to workforce participation will no longer be able to be fulfilled.

The unions have been campaigning against this right for centuries.

Yuval Harari has a lot of interesting writing on what he thinks might happen in the future. So far, the machines just seem to create more jobs, and better jobs.

Quote:

Definitely. I'm for reward for effort. But I'm a follower of the new economics aka MMT, not classical economics.

You are not a follower of MMT. You are a follower of idiot youtube "economists" who pick and choose soundbites from MMT to misinterpret.

Quote:

Oh.... you are good at perceiving the difficulties of taxing billionaires, so nuttin' can be done....

About what? Does their mere existence bother you?

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #125 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:16pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:55pm:

Quote:

Always plenty of wriggle room in any rules that affect those with the wherewithal... the problem here is big business - small businesses generally are good at keeping their taxes reasonably straight.

Quote:

The problem is mega-businesses not paying anything.... profit margins are so low you have to wonder why they're in business at all if it's so bad....

They are not actually that low. In the end, shareholders want distributions. This is distorted in the media by cherry picking stats. There are some years when most large businesses make a loss or very small profit. For the next few years that stats comparing $1 tax paid for $2000 turnover get passed around and around by the unionists and communists, as though it happens every year.

Quote:

We're entering a new stage of capitalism, where the machines are taking over. In some countries, at some point in time, the right to workforce participation will no longer be able to be fulfilled.

The unions have been campaigning against this right for centuries.

Yuval Harari has a lot of interesting writing on what he thinks might happen in the future. So far, the machines just seem to create more jobs, and better jobs.

Quote:

Definitely. I'm for reward for effort. But I'm a follower of the new economics aka MMT, not classical economics.

You are not a follower of MMT. You are a follower of idiot youtube "economists" who pick and choose soundbites from MMT to misinterpret.

Quote:

Oh.... you are good at perceiving the difficulties of taxing billionaires, so nuttin' can be done....

About what? Does their mere existence bother you?

Caught out! If they're not that low why do they not pay taxes in full and why do they oft-times feel the need to cut their worker's incomes? Why waste money engaging in futile industrial warfare? Patricks/Corrigans did this years ago with The Invasion Of The Scabs - and now they have gained - and learned - exactly nothing.

There is no divine right of shareholders to put their money into the shares pokie and get it back....

I see you are not only talking to me here, freed - who is the other voice in your head? If you stick to one set of quotes that you try to refute at a time, it is much easier for you and everyone else... reading this, many would think I said all those things.....

I stick to responding to the bits I said that you tried to refute.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Frank

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #126 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:26pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:01pm:

In this book, leading expert Pavlina R. Tcherneva challenges us to imagine a world where the phantom of unemployment is banished and anyone who seeks decent, living-wage work can find it - guaranteed. This is the aim of the Job Guarantee proposal: to provide a voluntary employment opportunity in public service to anyone who needs it. Tcherneva enumerates the many advantages of the Job Guarantee over the status quo and proposes a blueprint for its implementation within the wider context of the need for a Green New Deal.

This compact primer is the ultimate guide to the benefits of one of the most transformative public policies being discussed today. It is essential reading for all citizens and activists who are passionate about social justice and building a fairer economy".[/i]

...but you of course - being a comfortable conservative- will deny the possibility of tax reform, the possibility of implementing universal participation in the economy, and be satisfied with just blaming poverty on its victims; even as poverty is killing 24,000 people a day while billionaires continue to double their wealth in their sleep....

Nice.

I am not going to be swayed by an Amazon book blurb for a Bulgarian Associate Professor at some liberal art college.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 83927 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #127 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:32pm https://starwarsintrocreator.kassellabs.io/#!/DMuFmS-pmBs6TB9y9ATb
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #128 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 9:39pm

Quote:

Caught out! If they're not that low why do they not pay taxes in full and why do they oft-times feel the need to cut their worker's incomes?

You aren't making any sense Grapps.

Quote:

There is no divine right of shareholders to put their money into the shares pokie and get it back....

Sure, but if the money is there, it is there right to take it, and there is no way for them to do so without the tax man finding out. Have you completely forgotten what we were discussing?

Quote:

reading this, many would think I said all those things.....

Rest assured Grapps, you only said the things that you said.

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #129 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 11:09pm

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 10:37am:

Karnal wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 10:22am:

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:48am:

Frank wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2022 at 9:10am:

I am all for fair taxation. (I do note that a lot of wealth is not cash in the bank but the valud of assetts. So taxing billionnairs on their assetts would require thdm to sell some of it to get liquid asetts to pay the fax, unless they transferred shares and stocks to the tax office to own by way of tax payment - a daft idea).

On universal wage regardless of ability, contribution, assetts, wealth etc - this would fundamentally change social relations, creating an underclass from which nothing is expected. In essence it would create a class of people, a caste similar to the untouchables or the pre-emancipation negros, a second or third order lumpen prole class.
As with legalised drugs, the number of 'users' of the universal wage as their permanent sole source of money (plus petty crime) and permenant relationship tie to the rest of society would grow relentlessly. The whole idea of thriving, initiative, effort, excellence, giving it a go, trying again, failing beter, getting up and keeping going - and all the psychological, social, economic, emotional furniture that comes with such age old values would be radically changed in unforeseen but invariably distopian, degenerate ways.

Life is not JUST about money.

Not only but also

The fatal flaw of the universal basic income is the same one that hampers most existing anti-poverty programs: a lack of emphasis on encouraging work. Instead, these programs have sought to provide directly whatever poor people happen to lack. The result has been more than 50 years of massive public outlays, with little benefit other than making recipients dependent on government. The ongoing rise in worker’s disability claims follows a long string of recent expansions of welfare programs, such as food stamps, housing assistance, and even free phones to boost the standard of living among poor citizens.

In the long run, this transfer-focused approach to welfare does more than create a disincentive to work. In his book The Welfare Trait, British neurobiologist Adam Perkins argues that dependence on welfare creates work-resistant personalities, which are often passed on from one generation to the next. As one review of Perkins’s work puts it, the welfare state “becomes a production line for damaged kids” and encourages parents in unemployed households to have more children than families led by breadwinners.
https://www.city-journal.org/html/against-universal-basic-income-15636.html

That's ideology, dear. It's not the experience of the small number of trials into universal basic income.

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2020/2/19/21112570/universal-basic-income-ubi...

We're entering a new stage of capitalism, where the machines are taking over. In some countries, at some point in time, the right to workforce participation will no longer be able to be fulfilled. The current model of unemployment subsistence will no longer be relevant.

The question for the state, therefore, is how it manages the question of work and divvying up the spoils.

You'll be okay, dear boy, you'll be dead.

Same as it ever was, no?

That's Bbwianesque stupidity, with the studied flick of a limp wrist: ideology. Because universal basic wage has nuffin' to do wiv ideology or nuffin'. Oh, yes.

Collect 13,000 rupees or the equivalent in bananas, paki.

Nuffin', old boy, except for the link posted. Read it at your will - or not.

We wouldn't want you thrashing about on the floor, having read something.

On the contrary, we want you poised in your coffin, best dressed, just so.

Carry on, dear boy. Death becomes you, no?

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #130 - Jan 25^th, 2022 at 11:24pm

Valkie wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 12:07pm:

Its funny how tge ones bleating for more tax from the rich.

Have never worked a day in their lives, living off the taxes paid by working people.

Groggy and his socks are prime examples.
Spend all day on forums whyning and winging about what they dont have.
And fantasizing about what they coukd have if only they could get the rich to pay more tax.

Spoken like a true invalid pensioner. Wealth taxes don't tax working people, Matty, they tax wealth-management funds that never get taxed at all.

You used to think they should be taxed too, remember? You got the idea off Pauline.

That was last week. This week you want to bleat on about Groggy. You must be on holidays, no?

But I'm curious. Where does an invalid go?

Somewhere with a bit of fresh air, one hopes. We wouldn't want you ending up like poor old Frank, you poor old thing.

It happens to us all in the end, no?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #131 - Jan 26^th, 2022 at 12:52pm

freediver wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 6:55pm:

The unions have been campaigning against the right for workforce participation for centuries.

A tricky reply from a deluded classical economist.

The unions wanted to achieve living wages in the face of the depredations of greedy capitalists.

OTOH, the idea of universal above-poverty participation in the economy can only be achieved via a Job Guarantee (by definition), the central tenet of MMT. Your delusional classical economics rules this out.

Quote:

Yuval Harari has a lot of interesting writing on what he thinks might happen in the future. So far, the machines just seem to create more jobs, and better jobs.

Like running around on scooters with no workplace regulations, and other mickey-mouse gig economy 'jobs'.

Quote:

You are not a follower of MMT. You are a follower of idiot youtube "economists" who pick and choose soundbites from MMT to misinterpret.

I am a socialist who sees the choices made available to an electorate with MMT, eg, implementation of a Job Guarantee.

Your deluded - and hence evil - classical economics based on the theory of unlimited wants in the face of scarcity is obsolete because modern AI and IT assisted economies have removed any REAL scarcity of essentials (good food, housing, clothing, utilities and education) in the modern world.

Quote:

About what? Does their mere existence bother you?

Don't you read the debates you are replying to?

The debate is concerned with billionaires doubling their wealth in their sleep, while poverty-related conditions are killing 24,000 people every day (as per Oxfam report re the covid pandemic).

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #132 - Jan 26^th, 2022 at 1:01pm

Quote:

The unions wanted to achieve living wages in the face of the depredations of greedy capitalists.

That's how they try to spin it, but it was the greedy capitalists that gave it to them, despite the union antics, not because of it. The unions have slowed down this progress at every step of the way, effectively stealing from future generations with their greed and laziness.

Quote:

OTOH, the idea of universal above-poverty participation in the economy can only be achieved via a Job Guarantee (by definition), the central tenet of MMT.

No it isn't. It is the central tenet of the idiot youtube "economists" you follow, who attempt to give themselves credibility by claiming to be MMT'ists.

Quote:

I am a socialist

Pretending to be a MMT'ist.

Quote:

Your deluded - and hence evil - classical economics

Do you think mainstream eocnomics is evil?

Quote:

Don't you read the debates you are replying too?
The debate is concerned with billionaires doubling their wealth in their sleep

Why the compulsion to "do something" about that?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #133 - Jan 26^th, 2022 at 1:10pm

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:26pm:

I am not going to be swayed by an Amazon book blurb for a Bulgarian Associate Professor at some liberal art college.

Of course not, you have proved you are incapable debate many times.

I refute every and all of your deluded classical economics based nonsense, whereas you merely shouted "ideology" at someone who rightly said YOU were hiding behind ideology.

Pathetic.

But Just in case you do erroneously think you are capable of debate, start with this:

Quote:

...but you of course - being a comfortable conservative- will
1. deny the possibility of tax reform, given the false TINA narrative.
2. deny the possibility of implementing universal participation in the economy,
3. and be satisfied with just blaming poverty on its victims; even as poverty is killing 24,000 people a day while billionaires continue to double their wealth in their sleep....

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« Last Edit: Jan 26^th, 2022 at 1:17pm by thegreatdivide »

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Frank

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #134 - Jan 26^th, 2022 at 1:19pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 26^th, 2022 at 1:10pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 25^th, 2022 at 8:26pm:

I am not going to be swayed by an Amazon book blurb for a Bulgarian Associate Professor at some liberal art college.

Of course not, you have proved you are incapable debate many times.

I refute every and all of your deluded classical economics based nonsense, whereas you merely shouted "ideology" at someone who rightly said YOU were hiding behind ideology.

Pathetic.

But Just in case you do erroneously think you are capable of debate, try this:

Quote:

...but you of course - being a comfortable conservative- will
1. deny the possibility of tax reform, given the false TINA narrative.
2. deny the possibility of implementing universal participation in the economy,
3. and be satisfied with just blaming poverty on its victims; even as poverty is killing 24,000 people a day while billionaires continue to double their wealth in their sleep....

Not taking you seriously and not taking an intelligent, well-thought out argument seriously are NOT the same thing, pal, don't kid yourself.

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« Last Edit: Jan 26^th, 2022 at 2:06pm by Frank »

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