Australian Politics Forum - A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95395 Gender:	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #180 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 3:48pm We can just see Valkie's Aboriginal employees, coming to him to resign. No, mate, it's not you, you pay top dollar. I can just get more money on the dole, you see. Plus I get a free place to live, it's money for jam, mate.
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Frank

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #181 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:46pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 1:17pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 7:50am:

Filling jobs with Australians goes into too-hard basket
JUDITH SLOAN

Oh no, Judith Sloan, evil monetarist economist par excellence... she came on Q&A and said "the world doesn't owe anyone a living"....[ ok, that's an ad hominem, so let's she whats she says]:

Quote:

That there are large numbers of people on JobSeeker – about 200,000 – who took up welfare payments during the pandemic but remain without employment suggests there is a potential source of labour that could be tapped.

So far, so good.

Quote:

For some people, the net advantages of not working (including the payment of a slightly higher JobSeeker and other top-ups) are greater than the net advantages of working.

Ah, she's back to form, didn't take long: anyone for a job in an abattoir? What exactly are these jobs on offer? A gig economy job?

Quote:

This creates a dilemma for the government because the employability of these welfare recipients declines the longer their duration of joblessness.

Yes but the way to avoid that is to ensure no-one remains long-term unemployed.....by matching people AND training them if necessary, to the available jobs; and since the private sector never employs everyone, creating new jobs that people want done but which the private sector is not interested in providing.

Sloan of course is just another evil mainstream economist - who is actually a micro-, not a macro-economist, who blames unemployment on the unemployed. Sheer evil.

The solution is a Job Guarantee.

https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/the-case-for-a-job-guarantee/

One of the most enduring ideas in economics is that unemployment is both unavoidable and necessary for the smooth functioning of the economy**. This assumption has provided cover for the devastating social and economic costs of job insecurity. It is also false.

**The underlined is a reference to mainstream orthodoxy's concept of NAIRU, which posits unemployment to control inflation.

There are labour shortages. Jobs on offer.

200,000 Australians went on welfare during and stay on welfare even as jobs are on offer.

Employers demand that immigrants be let in to do thise jobs because Austealians, even though unemployed, can't be fagged to take them.

And noticing and verbalising this is evil mainstream economics to a stupid little Chinese shill.

The West's last best hope is that China is full of people like you.

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Valkie

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #182 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:52pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 2:35pm:

Valkie wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 10:12am:

I lost a particularly good employee a few years ago.
He was sorry he was leaving, saying he enjoyed his work and the people he worked for.

The problem was this.
His pay, while being above award, worked out to be less than his disposable income on welfare.

So... doesn't this suggest something is horribly wrong with pay scales compared with the cost of living? ie, we have systems problem?

[I have commented on this many times, you prefer to blame the victims of our dysfunctional system, rather than the dysfunctional system itself]

Quote:

With 4 children, one being disabled.
His aboriginal links (great grandfather apparently)
And the cost of fuel to get to and from work.
It was some ways short of welfare, plus he could more easily get welfare housing that he couldnt get working.

This is the face of uncontrolled welfare in Australia.
And this is why working people pay more tax than they should.

Yes I addressed all this yesterday, which you ignored: I say you deserve the economic system you accept.

Quote:

The rich will never pay more than they can afford.

Meanwhile parasite billionaires should hand over $5 trillion in loot gained while they were asleep in the pandemic, so that governments can at least afford to avoid nursing home residents lying in their own faeces...

Quote:

One business owner i worked for years ago, told me tgat he employed an accountant full time to find ways to minimise his tax.
He said it was cheaper to pay $180,000.00 @ year for this accountant than to pay 10 times that in "avoidable" taxes.

Remember mr Alan Bond
Tge multimillionaire?

He often boasted tgat he only paid tax on $25,000.00 a year.

Then there is the Qantas pooftah.
Didnt pay a cent in tax for years, still looking for an out from what I hear.

Multinationals ship profits off shore.
For example,
Our high quality coal is sold for a fraction of what we got for it 20 years ago.
Why?
Because the owners do deals with themselves to buy it cheap.
Then, while on the ship to its final destination, it triples in value so that landed its worth several times what they bought it for in Australia.
They only pay tax on what they bought it for.
They get a tax break for expenses mining it.
And they pocket billions.

And this is only a couple of examples.
It wont change as long as we have corrupt public servants, corrupt multinationals and corrupt politicians.
In other words, it will never change.

You have failed to identify the true villains, namely, the private financier of the current evil monetary system , who demand that sovereign currency-issuing governments must tax or borrow from private citizens, in order to spend.

Hopefully the extended pandemic, or maybe a CO2 climate emergency, will bring the whole stinking edifice - of the current evil system - crashing down.

As long as grubberments exist.
As long as multinationals exist.
As long as bribery and corruption of public service exists
And as long as the people who make the rules are open to corruption.

The system will never change.
And its so established now, that nothing short of total annihilation of grubberments as they are today, will change the system.

I once read, I dont know where, but I read that the rich are happy to fork out a few million in bribes and generous contributions to politicians.
To allow them the ability to get away with 10 or 20 even 100 times tgat amout in evaded taxes.

No point in complaining.
No point in demanding the rich pay their way.
No point in protesting

Nothing is ever going to change.

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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #183 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:50pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

$300 a week is not enough to make people complacent, and people don't work merely for money anyway.

Would you like fries with that? Thanks for making my life complete.

Quote:

$300 a week is not enough to make people complacent, and people don't work merely for money anyway. We need to be honest about how the economy works - unemployment is not about bludging, but structural problems, as covid has shown. Tory governments around the world were able to sell jobkeeper payments during covid, we could be honest about the future of work and sell a UBI this way. The rabid right were able to accept this.

You are trying to solve a problem that does not exist yet, and may never exist. People have been predicting this for centuries, every time a new machine reduces the need for human labour. But instead of ending paid jobs, we are busier than ever, building, selling and maintaining machines, doing far more interesting and satisfying jobs, with most women now in the workforce also.

True.

Quote:

A far bigger problem is the disappearance of a lot of the unpaid labour that used to make our society function.

Mothers, fathers and carers haven't disappeared, dear.

No Karnal. Mummy still exists. She's just at work.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 9:59pm:

When France last introduced a wealth tax, 60000 millionaires left the country, and the poor people it was supposed to help ended up worse off.

But the socialists were happy because they were more equal in their poverty.

You really should read the post you are replying to.

The G7 is dealing with the issue of international tax shifting for the 1st time in history.
Wow...international co-operation, to deal with the private greed of tax-avoiding billionaires.

They are doing nothing at all to prevent millionaires fleeing the countries that introduce a wealth tax, and you lie by pretending it is the same thing. Instead, countries are abandoning the wealth tax, on the grounds that it does more harm than good. That is, unlike your comrades at the propaganda ministry, they are acknowledging reality.

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #184 - Jan 28^th, 2022 at 11:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

$300 a week is not enough to make people complacent, and people don't work merely for money anyway.

Would you like fries with that? Thanks for making my life complete.

Quote:

$300 a week is not enough to make people complacent, and people don't work merely for money anyway. We need to be honest about how the economy works - unemployment is not about bludging, but structural problems, as covid has shown. Tory governments around the world were able to sell jobkeeper payments during covid, we could be honest about the future of work and sell a UBI this way. The rabid right were able to accept this.

You are trying to solve a problem that does not exist yet, and may never exist. People have been predicting this for centuries, every time a new machine reduces the need for human labour. But instead of ending paid jobs, we are busier than ever, building, selling and maintaining machines, doing far more interesting and satisfying jobs, with most women now in the workforce also.

True.

Quote:

A far bigger problem is the disappearance of a lot of the unpaid labour that used to make our society function.

Mothers, fathers and carers haven't disappeared, dear.

No Karnal. Mummy still exists. She's just at work.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 12:52pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 27^th, 2022 at 9:59pm:

When France last introduced a wealth tax, 60000 millionaires left the country, and the poor people it was supposed to help ended up worse off.

But the socialists were happy because they were more equal in their poverty.

You really should read the post you are replying to.

The G7 is dealing with the issue of international tax shifting for the 1st time in history.
Wow...international co-operation, to deal with the private greed of tax-avoiding billionaires.

They are doing nothing at all to prevent millionaires fleeing the countries that introduce a wealth tax, and you lie by pretending it is the same thing. Instead, countries are abandoning the wealth tax, on the grounds that it does more harm than good. That is, unlike your comrades at the propaganda ministry, they are acknowledging reality.

Mother has her hands full, dear. Valkie, the old boy, those hands of hers get ever so tired.

Won't be long, and your carers will want a piece too. Now I, for one, am willing to put in. You're worth it.

You, Valkie, the old boy too. It doesn't even matter if you flew here - them too, everybody.

Don't be stingy. Chip in.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #185 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 10:24am

Valkie wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:52pm:

No point in complaining.
No point in demanding the rich pay their way.
No point in protesting

Nothing is ever going to change.

The climate, and associated weather related catastrophes, does seem to be changing for the worse.

And if the climate scientists are proved to be correct, you will see currency-issuing governments ditching the free market, closing down the fossil industry, and building solar/wind + storage ASAP, all for free.....

Now THAT is change.....

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #186 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 10:26am

Quote:

And if the climate scientists are proved to be correct, you will see currency-issuing governments ditching the free market, and building solar/wind + storage ASAP, all for free.....

Sounds like you want to do everything for free, by printing money, which you have deluded yourself into thinking will not cause inflation.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #187 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 10:48am

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

They are doing nothing at all to prevent millionaires fleeing the countries that introduce a wealth tax, and you lie by pretending it is the same thing.

So the G7 are dealing with companies avoiding tax:

"In early June, and with considerable fanfare, the finance ministers of the G7 richest nations agreed to endorse a global minimum corporate tax rate of at least 15 per cent. ... A global corporate tax rate would target overseas profits, to eliminate such tactics and to discourage countries from undercutting each other."

The next step is co-ordinated action to ensure billionaires pay taxes wherever they choose to reside.

Quote:

Instead, countries are abandoning the wealth tax, on the grounds that it does more harm than good. That is, unlike your comrades at the propaganda ministry, they are acknowledging reality.

Funny how I am accused of wanting the money of billionaires, by introducing (say) a global 90% tax rate on earnings above a certain level, while you are determined to make sure the wealthy do not pay wealth taxes. Why are you so afraid of wealth taxes? Are you wealthy, or want to be wealthy?

The whole pathetic argument is why I want money creation powers assigned to sovereign currency-issuing governments.

http://moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/innocent-frauds/

Fact:
Government spending is NOT operationally limited or in any way constrained by taxing or borrowing.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #188 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 11:07am

Frank wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 5:46pm:

There are labour shortages. Jobs on offer.

True.

Quote:

200,000 Australians went on welfare during and stay on welfare even as jobs are on offer.

True, but those jobs need to match the abilities of the unemployed, and training costs (and relocation costs etc) cannot be borne by the unemployed.

Quote:

Employers demand that immigrants be let in to do thise jobs because Austealians, even though unemployed, can't be fagged to take them.

Addressed above. Either government or employers must bear the cost of (re-) training, which they are not willing to do, that's why both government and employers prefer to raid overseas talent.

Quote:

And noticing and verbalising this is evil mainstream economics to a stupid little Chinese shill.

No it's lack of solidarity with Oz workers by greedy employers, and also dumb governments who accept the current evil monetary orthodoxy which prevents the currency-issuing government from creating and spending its own currency.

Quote:

The West's last best hope is that China is full of people like you.

Unfortunately the PBofC is also deluded by the current evil Western monetary orthodoxy which confines the money- creation function to private financiers alone.

http://moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/innocent-frauds/

Fact:
Government spending is NOT operationally limited or in any way constrained by taxing or borrowing.

[But at least the CCP does have a sense of solidarity with its citizens, and subsidizes its SOEs as required to maintain employment].

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« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2022 at 11:15am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #189 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 11:23am

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 10:48am:

freediver wrote on Jan 28^th, 2022 at 6:50pm:

They are doing nothing at all to prevent millionaires fleeing the countries that introduce a wealth tax, and you lie by pretending it is the same thing.

So the G7 are dealing with companies avoiding tax:

"In early June, and with considerable fanfare, the finance ministers of the G7 richest nations agreed to endorse a global minimum corporate tax rate of at least 15 per cent. ... A global corporate tax rate would target overseas profits, to eliminate such tactics and to discourage countries from undercutting each other."

The next step is co-ordinated action to ensure billionaires pay taxes wherever they choose to reside.

Quote:

Instead, countries are abandoning the wealth tax, on the grounds that it does more harm than good. That is, unlike your comrades at the propaganda ministry, they are acknowledging reality.

Funny how I am accused of wanting the money of billionaires, by introducing (say) a global 90% tax rate on earnings above a certain level, while you are determined to make sure the wealthy do not pay wealth taxes. Why are you so afraid of wealth taxes? Are you wealthy, or want to be wealthy?

The whole pathetic argument is why I want money creation powers assigned to sovereign currency-issuing governments.

http://moslereconomics.com/mandatory-readings/innocent-frauds/

Fact:
Government spending is NOT operationally limited or in any way constrained by taxing or borrowing.

That is still not a wealth tax. It would help if you took the time to figure out what you are talking about.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #190 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 11:24am

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 10:26am:

Sounds like you want to do everything for free, by printing money, which you have deluded yourself into thinking will not cause inflation.

Not everything, only the essentials, like transitioning to the renewable economy ASAP (which can't happen with silly carbon pricing in free markets, because the fossil companies want to retain their profits), and maintaining full employment via a Job Guarantee.

Now, explain how governments funding transition to free sunshine and wind for free, will cause inflation, given that the whole world will eventually be running on free sunshine and wind, resulting in a massive reduction in global energy costs...

Note: if the climate change emergency is real, and the issue is saving the planet, there is no such thing as 'opportunity costs'....and tools such as price controls and non-essential product rationing can be employed during the transition itself, as the fossil industry is nationalized (for free) and progressively shut down.

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« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2022 at 11:29am by thegreatdivide »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48844 At my desk.	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #191 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:42pm Quote: Now, explain how governments funding transition to free sunshine and wind for free It's not free, that's how.
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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #192 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 5:03pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 12:42pm:

Quote:

Now, explain how governments funding transition to free sunshine and wind for free

It's not free, that's how.

Fail.

Building the necessary green infrastructure around the world - which will be powered by free sunshine and wind - can be done for free, by bypassing the free market and instituting price controls and non-essential goods rationing if required, to avoid inflation.

The issue is resource mobilization, not money which in any case is always created out of thin air; it's just that under current institutional arrangements that privilege is reserved for debt-interest-charging private bankers.....

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #193 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 5:05pm

Quote:

Building the necessary green infrastructure around the world - which will be powered by free sunshine and wind - can be done for free, by bypassing the free market and instituting price controls and non-essential goods rationing if required, to avoid inflation.

If this magical method is so good, why not make everything free?

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thegreatdivide

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #194 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 6:10pm

freediver wrote on Jan 30^th, 2022 at 5:05pm:

If this magical method is so good, why not make everything free?

Only the essentials** can be free, because resources + know-how + productive capacity are not infinite. If they were, indeed everything could be free.

** including, so it appears, green infrastructure: It looks like the climate is indeed turning nasty, with these unending weather disasters all around the world.

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« Last Edit: Jan 30^th, 2022 at 6:31pm by thegreatdivide »

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