Australian Politics Forum - A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia

freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #60 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 3:42pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:21pm:

Quote:

"The wealthier you are, the wealthier you get as asset values rise,” Ms Hutley said.

Ah. How unnatural.

How inscrutable. Are you being economical with your words to avoid making an argument?

Oh-er, looks like you made one here:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2022 at 2:24pm:

The highlighted bit is what proves is doesn't understand the basics of economics. It is not a tap that gets turned on or off. Doing a bad thing does not become good just because you do it to a lesser extent. It is merely not as bad.

I'm curious. When you bring ethics into a discussion on fiscal stimulous, how do you define concepts like "good" and "bad"?

That's a question.

We all agree on what is bad. We only disagree on whether it becomes good, or doesn't happen at all, if you do it in small amounts.

People with assets getting richer when asset prices rise is entirely natural. My apologies, I didn't think this would come across as inscrutable.

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:51pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 8:44am:

The highlighted bit is what proves he doesn't understand the basics of economics.

Don't you read replies? Here it is again:

Gittins correctly pointed out inflation is related to resources availability (demand for which must not be exceeded) NOT a money supply problem, or "turning taps on or off" in dysfunctional market economies.

It is a meaningless distinction. Like saying that prices reflect where the demand curve lies rather than where the supply curve lies. He is appealing to, and manipulating, people such as yourself who do not understand economics.

What really gives away the fact he has no clue what he is talking about is when it suggests the effect disappears when you do it in smaller amounts. Not sure why you still seem incapable of comprehending this point.

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #61 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:02pm

Quote:

We all agree on what is bad. We only disagree on whether it becomes good, or doesn't happen at all, if you do it in small amounts.

Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy. This is the point of the OP.

The solution to rectifying this bad is taxing the billionaires, most of whom pay less tax than you or I.

Most would agree with this proposal, including the billionaires themselves. For Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, it's one of the most pressing global bads on the planet.

You, on the other hand, disagree. Perhaps you would like to outline your own solution - your alternative to placing the tax burden on middle income earners and getting everyone to pay their share.

Over to you.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48860 At my desk.	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #62 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:11pm Quote: Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy. I'd describe it as meaningless communist propaganda.
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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74328 Gender:	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #63 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:18pm freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:11pm: Quote: Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy. I'd describe it as meaningless communist propaganda. yes, you do that a lot when you try to hide behind gibberish
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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #64 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:35pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 3:01pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 1:53pm:

Stop fighting for scraps, leftards, let's give everybody a fair go and take back our fair share. Companies will still do business in Australia. It's time to take the next logical step in human evolution.

Yes the Right are laughing all the way to the bank, when Leftards all around the world are arguing among themselves.

The "right" are an ideological gaggle in Australia. They used to be a harmless mob of pastoral squatters, protectionists and fixed-currency types, pro-union, pro status quo.

This all changed in the 80s, not only due to new economic ideas, Friedman, Hayek, etc, but the monopolisation of the media by Murdoch, who took over the lion's share of the media in Australia, US and UK.

The "right" subsequently became a self-interested, morally-bankrupt outfit, led by the loudest columnists and commentators in the News Ltd press, Fox and Sky. They reached their peak with the election of Trump, then came crashing down just as hard.

Interestingly, the "right" is a different beast in English-speaking countries with non-Murdoch friendly media laws. Canada and New Zealand are completely different countries as a result.

The "left" have had a journey of their own, the centre-left being neutralised by the fact that, with the exception of the US, they have achieved their signature policies - universal education, health care, the welfare state, worker safety policies, etc.

This required a turn, which was met by the advancing Green parties, who ate into their base. The industrial base, or what's left of it, has increasingly turned right.

The rich, however, are above all this, but have formed a technocracy. While predominantly anti-union, the Silicon Valley elites are pro-Green and pro-wealth distribution. Unlike the pastoralists and wealthy landholders of the past, their investment requires a knowledge base, which brings an awareness of social issues.

The industrial/Cold War dichotomy of "left" and "right" doesn't do the new order justice. Such terms usually prevent understanding. They're blunt, ideological, and only rarely relevant, but carry so much baggage they're important.

It would be a mistake, however, to identify with either of them. The economy, like nature, is neutral.

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #65 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:11pm:

Quote:

Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy.

I'd describe it as meaningless communist propaganda.

That's right, after you tried no-speaka, you now want to play Red Peril.

I mean, yeah-but-no-but, you still haven't addressed the issue - your alternative to placing the tax burden on middle income earners and getting everyone to pay their share.

Don't want to say?

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #66 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 6:30pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:43pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:11pm:

Quote:

Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy.

I'd describe it as meaningless communist propaganda.

That's right, after you tried no-speaka, you now want to play Red Peril.

I mean, yeah-but-no-but, you still haven't addressed the issue - your alternative to placing the tax burden on middle income earners and getting everyone to pay their share.

Don't want to say?

You are so well versed in parroting this gibberish that you don't even realise that normal people have no idea what you are ranting about.

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Gnads Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 29369 Gender:	Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia Reply #67 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 7:05pm I don't support a wealth tax .... but when it comes to FD...... Slap it on the tnuc.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #68 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 7:54pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 3:08pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:58pm:

One is sometimes obliged to be economical with the truth...

Never "obliged", no.

Quote:

and truth is such a fragile beast it oft times needs to be surrounded by a bodyguard of lies...

Example?

Of course, that will require you defend your version of "truth"....

How remiss of me - the only truth is what the state tells us, yes? Take it or leave it on your way to the gulag or worse.

Actually, this is two quotes - one from an M.I.6 agent giving testimony here, the other from Winston Churchill. I just mixed them together to give you all something to think about.... in the case of the agent economy with the truth was not intended to mislead, but rather to reveal only what was necessary... the rest is Winston.

Friends - I think it's high time Billy Jack put in another appearance - the boy's been quiet for a while and jest plain sick there, friends, due to the constant harping going on here...

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #69 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 7:55pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:42pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 2:21pm:

Quote:

"The wealthier you are, the wealthier you get as asset values rise,” Ms Hutley said.

Ah. How unnatural.

How inscrutable. Are you being economical with your words to avoid making an argument?

Oh-er, looks like you made one here:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2022 at 2:24pm:

The highlighted bit is what proves is doesn't understand the basics of economics. It is not a tap that gets turned on or off. Doing a bad thing does not become good just because you do it to a lesser extent. It is merely not as bad.

I'm curious. When you bring ethics into a discussion on fiscal stimulous, how do you define concepts like "good" and "bad"?

That's a question.

Fiscal stimulous? Is that, like.. a kind of cloud?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Valkie

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #70 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 8:02pm

Look, its a simple thing to show proof surely.

Proof tgat taxing people more so that those who wont/dont work will be so much better off.

After all, most workers are already handing over at least 25% of their income
And businesses find some really great tax dodges, thanks to very carefully worded tax laws.

What will happen.
Is tgat the workers will be taxed more and businesses and multinationals will still dodge taxes.

Pauleen Hanson had a great idea.
One that frightened multinationals, banks and the rich so much tgat they put her in gaol to shut her up.

A money transfer tax.
Its a simple thing really.
Every time money is transfered from one place to another, you pay a small tax.
2% or 3%.

For a worker this would mean
3% to have money transfered into their account
3% to buy something or take money out
3% to put money into super etc.

Where the big money comes in is big money transactions.
Banks, multinationals and megga rich transfer money into off shore accounts.
Banks in particular par no tax on money that is "in transit" which is one reason they take 5 business days to clear a cheque.

Imagine if every time someone put money into the bank or removed money from the bank they paid 3% tax.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable from bank transfers every single day.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable on money transferred overseas.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable on money moved from one account to another.

The grubberment would be literally swimming in cash.
And "the rich" woukd have no way to dodge.

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freediver

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #71 - Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 9:42pm

Quote:

Pauleen Hanson had a great idea.
One that frightened multinationals, banks and the rich so much tgat they put her in gaol to shut her up.

A money transfer tax.
Its a simple thing really.
Every time money is transfered from one place to another, you pay a small tax.
2% or 3%.

Another terrible idea from someone who is clueless about economics. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No more so that when it comes to politicians trying to interfere with the economy.

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #72 - Jan 23^rd, 2022 at 2:31am

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 6:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:43pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 4:11pm:

Quote:

Then we agree that taxing future generations to pay big business for nothing in return is bad public policy.

I'd describe it as meaningless communist propaganda.

That's right, after you tried no-speaka, you now want to play Red Peril.

I mean, yeah-but-no-but, you still haven't addressed the issue - your alternative to placing the tax burden on middle income earners and getting everyone to pay their share.

Don't want to say?

You are so well versed in parroting this gibberish that you don't even realise that normal people have no idea what you are ranting about.

Que?

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Karnal

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #73 - Jan 23^rd, 2022 at 2:40am

Valkie wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 8:02pm:

Look, its a simple thing to show proof surely.

Proof tgat taxing people more so that those who wont/dont work will be so much better off.

After all, most workers are already handing over at least 25% of their income
And businesses find some really great tax dodges, thanks to very carefully worded tax laws.

What will happen.
Is tgat the workers will be taxed more and businesses and multinationals will still dodge taxes.

Pauleen Hanson had a great idea.
One that frightened multinationals, banks and the rich so much tgat they put her in gaol to shut her up.

A money transfer tax.
Its a simple thing really.
Every time money is transfered from one place to another, you pay a small tax.
2% or 3%.

For a worker this would mean
3% to have money transfered into their account
3% to buy something or take money out
3% to put money into super etc.

Where the big money comes in is big money transactions.
Banks, multinationals and megga rich transfer money into off shore accounts.
Banks in particular par no tax on money that is "in transit" which is one reason they take 5 business days to clear a cheque.

Imagine if every time someone put money into the bank or removed money from the bank they paid 3% tax.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable from bank transfers every single day.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable on money transferred overseas.
Imagine how many billions would be taxable on money moved from one account to another.

The grubberment would be literally swimming in cash.
And "the rich" woukd have no way to dodge.

Tobin taxes didn't come from Pauline, dear, they're a one-world government plan to give something back to the tinted developing countries, shafted by globalisation.

Sure, they're a jolly good idea, and alas, they'll never happen.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: A wealth Tax Should Be Introduced In Australia
Reply #74 - Jan 23^rd, 2022 at 8:31am

Karnal wrote on Jan 22^nd, 2022 at 1:53pm:

Valkie wrote on Jan 18^th, 2022 at 5:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 18^th, 2022 at 5:02pm:

Valkie wrote on Jan 18^th, 2022 at 11:45am:

Not conned, just sick to death of lazy parasites sitting on their fat arses doing nothing and demanding more to do it.

you mean those like you?

No, more like you.

I have done my time 47 years fully employed.
Paid my taxes all my life.
Done my job and been a worthwhile employee.

Now Im retired, living on my own money, I get nothing from the system I have supported all my life.

Paying for dole bludgers, abbos, illegal immigrants, single mothers who keep churning out kids for cash and a whole lot of other parasites.

I owe no one anything
And everyone owes me.

You get the invalid pension, you silly old thing, you know that. It's the reason you're hustling for a pension rise and cuts to the dole. You're just scrounging at the table for scraps, fighting off your fellow beggars.

As the OP points out, the problem is the wealth floating to the top - not due to any natural economic forces, but government regulation and subsidies.

We could fix many of these problems in one go: a universal basic income, a plan proposed by the billionaires themselves: Musk, Zuckerberg, Gates, etc.

Mechanisation is steadily replacing the majority of jobs: manufacturing, transport, warehousing, retail; these workforces are about to be decimated. Even the service sector is being outsourced to foreign call centres, if not to bots.

It's pointless blaming dole bludgers when the shortage of jobs is systemic. The billionaires themselves are acknowledging this - many are asking to be taxed. Bill Gates puts the growing income gap and wealthy tax evasion up there with malaria and lack of clean drinking water as a pressing global problem.

We could replace all those benefits - the pension, the dole, child subsidies - with a universal basic wage. No work for 20 years, no cut-off after a year, no means testing, everybody. The payment could then be taxed accordingly, or taken back, based on your income.

We've seen the results - the covid payments were an economic stimulus that saved us from recession. Problem is, we borrowed the money rather than taxing the wealthy. The result? The cash just flowed into the coffers of Harvey Norman et al.

A reasonable universal income of about $300 a week paid to all working-age adults would more than double our Centrelink budget, so we'd need a wealth tax to cover it. No problem, the big billionaires are already supporting that. This is an idea who's time has come.

Stop fighting for scraps, leftards, let's give everybody a fair go and take back our fair share. Companies will still do business in Australia. It's time to take the next logical step in human evolution.

Karnal.....take a closer look at who you're name dropping.

These names and their fellow elite buddies are the reason behind why economies are struggling.

You're referring to them as though they represent the Messiah. They're not. They collectively represent the Anti Christ himself.

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