Australian Politics Forum - socialists and the Chinese Communist Party

thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #105 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:09pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 5:44pm:

That's very true and the core reason why imposed socialism (particularly exemplified by the Chinese and Soviet kind) is destined to ultimately fail. People will not be virtuous or generous by force; as people will not be abused into being more compassionate or moral.

Yet a generation which has experienced the fastest increase in living standards - over a single lifetime - of any nation in history might well be inclined to stay with the system; a Harvard poll shows >90% satisfaction with the CCP.

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It has always proved to be the fatal flaw of imposed socialism.

We will see; China is not the USSR and that amazing transformation must be breathtaking for ordinary Chinese.....anyone for a 300 km/hr rail journey to the countryside?.

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Democracy is loud and messy. Always has, always will be.

Yes, and Chinese people recoiled in horror at the sight of the Capitol riots...

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Totalitarianism,however, is a facade of order over chaos. The cost of state control must always increase to enforce 'order' over the 'messiness' that personal freedom necessarily requires and what people will always pursue (even if they need to do so by subterfuge) e.g. - the Eastern German joke: 'They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work'.

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True, but as freediver has noted, the CCP is increasingly internally democratic, so if those 5-year plans keep getting implemented as they always have in the last 30 years, watch out, while the gridlocked democracies often as not reverse the policies of the previous 'elected' clowns in office.

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Victor Sunny

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #106 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:32pm

Socialist is good for poor area with stable environment. There no need competition for resources, productivity, fast changing technology etc. Everything is planned by government, such as your work, your living, health cares, education and so on. China was such kind of society.

However, this world is still a developing world. Everything like technology are changing so fast every year. Due to socialist / planned economy has less competition, it's not capable for the fast changing world. That's the why China changed their economy model and went to market economy.

If we could combine socialist and competition of capitalist, this world would have common prosperity.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #107 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:53pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:09pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 5:44pm:

That's very true and the core reason why imposed socialism (particularly exemplified by the Chinese and Soviet kind) is destined to ultimately fail. People will not be virtuous or generous by force; as people will not be abused into being more compassionate or moral.

Yet a generation which has experienced the fastest increase in living standards - over a single lifetime - of any nation in history might well be inclined to stay with the system; a Harvard poll shows >90% satisfaction with the CCP.

Hardly a surprise given what Deng started with in 1980. The country was in a medieval state of abject poverty.

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True, but as freediver has noted, the CCP is increasingly internally democratic, so if those 5-year plans keep getting implemented as they always have in the last 30 years, watch out, while the gridlocked democracies often as not reverse the policies of the previous 'elected' clowns in office.

I don't believe the CCP will become increasingly internally democratic. Xi Jinping is creating a transfer-of-power crisis by his drive towards making himself president-for-life. He's nearly 69 now. As he gets older and weaker, a catastrophic power struggle will be in the making.

Deng recognised this problem and imposed a limit of 2 5-year terms, which Xi has had removed.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49091 At my desk.	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #108 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:56pm Quote: If we could combine socialist and competition of capitalist, this world would have common prosperity. If you mean just capitalism with some kind of safety net like unemployment benefits, that's easy.
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #109 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 7:18pm

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If we could combine socialist and competition of capitalist, this world would have common prosperity.

It's a myth that the Chinese have viable unemployment protection, They also have no free healthcare system. Healthcare is a joke, with the voodoo of TCM being mandatory with an obsession with antibiotics.

In those terms, Australians enjoy socialism by choice. China has enforced socialism without the benefits (i.e. totalitarianism).

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 84799 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party Reply #110 - Jan 29^th, 2022 at 7:35pm Well..... I suppose it depends on your definition of democratic.... Peoples Democratic Republic of Despotism, v.1984. ... how was that one, sports fans... right up there for the Oscars?....
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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #111 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 6:30am

If the (half) joke is true (and, tipping the hat to the apparent mainland Chinese love for short lists, which is why the CCP knocks them up by the dozen); after foreigners, four things mainland Chinese hate the most are: losing face, missing a business opportunity, ethnic minorities, and each other; it’s not much of a wonder that imposing socialism on them is, at best, the script for a farce that all mainland Chinese are forced to act out.

Good reason, though, why socialism can only be enforced on them (to evoke the ghost of Mao) from the barrel of a gun; and not from the love of socialism.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #112 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 11:10am

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:53pm:

Hardly a surprise given what Deng started with in 1980. The country was in a medieval state of abject poverty.

That's right, and the results have been spectacular - arguing against your CCP collapse theory. Who wants governement by adversarial democratic clowns only interested in their own careers, without any consistent development goals, running the country?

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I don't believe the CCP will become increasingly internally democratic. Xi Jinping is creating a transfer-of-power crisis by his drive towards making himself president-for-life. He's nearly 69 now. As he gets older and weaker, a catastrophic power struggle will be in the making.

I'm sure there is plenty of talent in the CCP to replace Xi when the time comes. I don't believe Xi is hanging onto power for its own sake.

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Deng recognised this problem and imposed a limit of 2 5-year terms, which Xi has had removed.

FDR....3 (or 4) terms? If the leader is right for the times....

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freediver

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #113 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 11:23am

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Who wants governement by adversarial democratic clowns only interested in their own careers, without any consistent development goals, running the country?

Everyone does. Including the Chinese. Even the CCP itself is internally democratic. The CCP starved millions of people to death with their idiocy.

The CCP is neither competent nor efficient. They have made the biggest backflip in history, and, thanks to lack of democracy, there is nothing to stop them doing it again, with a much higher death toll. It takes true incompetence to kill millions of people by trying to help them. You won't find anything else like that in human history.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #114 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 11:51am

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:05pm:

Only in a fairly superficial sense. Politicians still openly purchase votes in India.

Proving how impratical democracy is for vast subsistence populations. Meanwhile, even the US can't decide the vote count without heading to the Supreme Court.

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Thank's also to the the internal democracy of the CCP, the recent rapid transition to capitalism, and the one child policy, which although barbaric and oppressive, has no doubt helped break the poverty cycle in China.

Plus state subsidization of SOEs and regulation of free markets when required. aka 'socialism'. eg farmer suicides in India are a national disgrace, owing to free market failure which is not tolerated in China.

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What point are you trying to make? You have lost the plot completely here.

I just proved no-one knows how the macroeconomy works; it's time to give MMT economists a run, because the mainstreamers are f**wits still hobbled by obsolete scarcity and unlimited wants BS. There is no scarcity today.

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What do you mean let? No-one is stopping China doing anything.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/07/31/china-facing-strategy-of-conta...

China Facing Strategy Of Containment In New Cold War

...in war, one is not free to do as one likes....

Interestingly Michelle Bachelet UN HRC is set to visit Xinjiang this year, welcomed by China, to examine the West's false "genocide" accusations. Of course the US isn't interested in the well-being of people in Xinjiang, (any more than countless other countries); and US hypocrisy is breathtaking:

"The UN Security Council Al-Qaida Sanctions Committee has listed ETIM (East Turkestan Islamic Movement) as a terrorist organization since 2002, though the United States removed it from its list of Terrorist Organizations in 2020.

Hypocrites, all to cause instability in Xinjiang, not to mention the US sanctions on Xinjiang companies which will reduce peoples' incomes there.

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And you miss the point again. You attributed a claim to me. Back it up. Whether I actually made the claim is entirely the point here.

You claim China is free of external coercion; refuted above.

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LOL. Only a fool would argue against learning the lessons of history.

I didn't argue against it, I said they were too busy getting on with grasping the new opportunities which the CCP has created.

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There is every chance the CCP will go back to the bad old ways if another true believer comes into power.

Is Xi not a 'true believer'?

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The only reason for not learning from the past is so the CCP can repeat it.

The CCP is well aware of past mistakes and has no intention of repeating them; it has too many other tasks in advancing the nation's well-being, rather than teaching past mistakes to the present generation.

As Alan Tudge appreciates...he is complaining that schools are teaching students to "hate their country", by examining the aboriginal genocide too closely...ouch.

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« Last Edit: Jan 30^th, 2022 at 12:16pm by thegreatdivide »

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #115 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 12:29pm

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 6:56pm:

If you mean just capitalism with some kind of safety net like unemployment benefits, that's easy.

Wrong; common prosperity means above-poverty participation in the economy, by and for all.

Take a look at the black population in the NT to see the results of your 'safety net' concept, a cop-out from failed mainstream NAIRU economics.

The only solution is a Job Guarantee, because welfare ("sit-down money") always destroys morale.

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freediver

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #116 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 12:43pm

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Proving how impratical democracy is for vast subsistence populations.

That is not what it proves. What it proves is that it requires a cultural change, not a facade.

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Meanwhile, even the US can't decide the vote count without heading to the Supreme Court.

This is a good thing. They have justice as well as democracy.

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I just proved no-one knows how the macroeconomy works; it's time to give MMT economists a run

The last time a leader discarded economics like this, tens of millions of Chinese starved to death.

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You claim China is free of external coercion; refuted above.

No it isn't. That is just you being hysterical.

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Is Xi not a 'true believer'?

He is a spin doctor. Like you, trying to sell capitalism to the Chinese people as rebranded socialism, in order to save face for the CCP over the tens of millions of people they killed by trying to help them.

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The CCP is well aware of past mistakes and has no intention of repeating them

Unless the winds of change change again, and if the people are oblivious, they will get away with it. Besides, there is more than one way to kill tens of millions of Chinese people by trying to help them, as your MMT argument proves.

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As Alan Tudge appreciates...he is complaining that schools are teaching students to "hate their country", by examining the aboriginal genocide too closely...ouch.

The Chinese people should hate the CCP for starving tens of millions of Chinese people to death. They should hate the CCP out of love for China.

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thegreatdivide

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #117 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 12:47pm

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 7:18pm:

[quote]
It's a myth that the Chinese have viable unemployment protection, They also have no free healthcare system. Healthcare is a joke, with the voodoo of TCM being mandatory with an obsession with antibiotics.

In those terms, Australians enjoy socialism by choice. China has enforced socialism without the benefits (i.e. totalitarianism).

Your entire argument completely misses context.

In 1950, Australia was a prosperous 1st world country, China was among the poorest in the world, with 700 million to lift out of absolute poverty. Today, with a population of 1.4 billion:

"China's Social Security System consists of 5 mandatory insurance schemes (pension fund, medical insurance, industrial injury insurance, unemployment insurance, and maternity insurance) + a housing fund"

Obviously the benefits will increase as the economy grows.

Meantime, 700 million people are still living in absolute poverty in India , hence the difference in life expectancy: China 77 years, India 69 years. (US: 79)

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #118 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 1:14pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30^th, 2022 at 12:47pm:

MeisterEckhart wrote on Jan 29^th, 2022 at 7:18pm:

[quote]
It's a myth that the Chinese have viable unemployment protection, They also have no free healthcare system. Healthcare is a joke, with the voodoo of TCM being mandatory with an obsession with antibiotics.

In those terms, Australians enjoy socialism by choice. China has enforced socialism without the benefits (i.e. totalitarianism).

Your entire argument completely misses context.

In 1950, Australia was a prosperous 1st world country, China was among the poorest in the world, with 700 million to lift out of absolute poverty. Today, with a population of 1.4 billion:

"China's Social Security System consists of 5 mandatory insurance schemes (pension fund, medical insurance, industrial injury insurance, unemployment insurance, and maternity insurance) + a housing fund"

Obviously the benefits will increase as the economy grows.

Meantime, 700 million people are still living in absolute poverty in India , hence the difference in life expectancy: China 77 years, India 69 years. (US: 79)

Oh yes! It may be written but it is not done. Every foreigner and the odd Chinese citizen who risks imprisonment can show you that, in practise, the ordinary Chinese pay their own way in just about everything including unemployment, health and injury. Then there are the kickbacks they're usually forced to pay to local party officials. To add to the cost, the central government burdens provincial governments with unpayable debt by demanding huge infrastructure growth they can't pay for. This incentivises the provincial governments to fleece its population.

As for salary and wages. So many ordinary Chinese have not been paid fully for years. Xi Jinping now wants many of them to work extra hours for no extra pay.

China may have 1.4 billion, but the catastrophe of imposed socialism (and it's always had Chinese characteristics), has left a gender gap that may ultimately bring China down regardless of how its governed.

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MeisterEckhart

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Re: socialists and the Chinese Communist Party
Reply #119 - Jan 30^th, 2022 at 1:25pm

thegreatdivide wrote on Jan 30^th, 2022 at 11:10am:

I'm sure there is plenty of talent in the CCP to replace Xi when the time comes. I don't believe Xi is hanging onto power for its own sake.

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Deng recognised this problem and imposed a limit of 2 5-year terms, which Xi has had removed.

FDR....3 (or 4) terms? If the leader is right for the times....

Nothing to do with talent. Totalitarian paramount leadership attracts the brutally psychopathic, which is why Deng imposed a limit to leadership and removed from the role much of its sovereign power.

US presidential term limits were self-imposed by all presidents following Washington's example, up to Roosevelt. After Roosevelt, the US Constitution was amended (the 22nd Amendment) to prevent the same from happening again.

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